NOTICE: I do not believe in any of these man made Gods. I am agnostic and can not hate God as I do not believe in him. My view of these Scriptures are far more objective than others in that I am NOT threatened with eternal torture by fire if I don’t believe and I am not promised great rewards if I do believe.
This Scriptural Proof is followed by three other posts that expose more truths/facts that religious types would rather you NOT learn. It is only my opinion and I present it as “according to the Bible”.
If we are to believe the Bible is the word of God, we must be honest with ourselves and admit that Scripture doesn’t provide for Free Will. This can be demonstrated both through Scripture and SIMPLE logic.
Free Will: Is defined as - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.
Religious types argue they have Free Will given to them by God. I argue the opposite.
Regardless of what the Bible states, IF they believe in God then they have NO Free Will….according to the definition of Free Will. Why? Because it is a NECESSITY they believe and Directly Related to their FATE!! Their FATE DEPENDS on their belief.
If they do not believe, they will be tortured by a loving God for eternity (Christian version). Additionally, if they DO believe, their FATE will involve REWARDS of things like Eternal life and Love.
Imagine telling a child (impressionable mind) that if he/she doesn’t believe in your Version of God he is going to be punished the most horrifying torture if he/she doesn’t believe. Now imaging having this information given to him by those that love him/her the most….MOM and DAD! Now, imagine Mom and Dad taking this child to places where there are many others that tell him the same thing, adults and kids and nice friendly people that enforce the belief. Could this Child use FREE WILL to decide to believe? Absolutely NOT! This Child actually has almost NO choice and in reality is forced to believe in the version of God that is taught to them. The majority of Christians will tell us that their child made a free will choice. That is a LIE and it doesn’t allow for a child to make a free will choice.
Brainwashing is mental abuse. Yes, religious leaders do want to Brainwash your children:
“Those who control what young people are taught, and what they experience — what they see, hear, think, and believe — will determine the future course for the nation.” — James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family …CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE and HONESTY? haha
Brainwashing is NOT FREE WILL!!
Note: I believe we have free will but I don’t believe in God and I don’t believe the Bible is the word of any of the many versions of God. My fate is not tied to believing in a God.
Lets Begin the Scriptural Proof:
“Yet ALL is of God” (II Cor. 5:18) (recently I had someone tell me this is NOT God’s word but the words of Paul. So I guess we are to assume it was also not inspired by God and not true?)
Can we find Free Will in that Scripture? I don’t! ALL….EVERYTHING is OF GOD! Plain and simple!! Notice that many will say I took Scripture out of context.
Does the Scripture say “Yet all is NOT of God” ? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Is the Scripture “Yet ALL is of God” TRUE or FALSE? Unless one wants to DENY the word of God they must admit it is True. Therefore simple logic demonstrates that we can not have Free Will if ALL is of God.
Another Witness?
“Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that” (James 4:13-15).
Like other Scriptures, apparently the Holy Spirit “inspired” James or others to write these statements.
Another Witness?
“Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heave” (Matt. 6:9-10).
Man’s Will? Nope!
Another Witness?
“For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will Hehardens” (Vers. 17-18).
Pharaoh did not harden his own heart—God said that He hardened it.
Free Will? NO!
Another Witness?
“You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?” [Greek ..purpose] (Rom. 9:19).
Again, God’s Will!
Another Witness?
This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36). Where is the free will? Again, some will say it is out of context. Are they then saying that NOT all things are of him, through him and to him? Either it is or it is NOT!
Is the above Scripture True or False? Unless one wants to DENY the word of God, they must admit that yes “For of him…..are ALL THINGS”
Another Witness?
“In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL” (Eph. 1:11). Again, does their argument of “out of context” apply to this Scripture or is it clear that God works ALL things after his OWN Will? It is rather difficult to have a Free Will when it is all been pre-arranged.
Does he work all things according to his Will? TRUE or FALSE?
Another Witness?
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
Again, is this Scripture True or False ”For OF HIM…are all Things..”
Another Witness?
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist” (Col. 1:16-17).
All Things consist (yes, this includes evil things, this includes faith, and even repenting)
Another Witness?
“To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven” (Ecc. 3:1).
“I know that, whatsoever God does…NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it” (Ecc. 3:14).
“…for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work…” (The New Revised Standard Version).
“For He has set a season for every event and for every deed…” (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).
Just how can there be Free Will when this God appointed the exact time for everything to happen? Context? They are not willing to say God DIDN”T appoint a time for every event or every matter but don’t want to admit that he did….even when the word spells it out specifically!
Another Witness?
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
Another Witness?
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING…” (Acts 17:28).
Another Witness?
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23). How can one have Free Will when even their own steps are not of themselves? It is impossible!! Simple Logic demonstrates this fact. Context? Either man walks to direct is OWN steps or he doesn’t.
Another Witness?
YOU can NOT say Jesus is Lord, unless God gives you that ability.
“…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.”
Another Witness?
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME? The WORDS that I speak unto you I speak NOT OF MYSELF; but the Father that dwells in Me, HE DOES THE WORKS” (John 14:10).
I didn’t catch any Free Will in that statement…did anyone else?
Another Witness?
“For OUT [the Greek is ‘out’ not ‘of’] of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR [Greek is ‘for’ not ‘to’] is ALL” (Rom. 11:36).
Another Witness?
“God is operating ALL in all” (I Cor. 12:6) (operating – to CONTROL the function) Context? Either God is Operating ALL in ALL or he is NOT. The implication of this Scripture are clear. Does God operate all in all? True or False?
If they accept that this Scripture is True then we logically demonstrate that there is again NO Free Will.
Another Witness?
EVEN your FAITH is not of “Yourself” or in other words, you don’t decide to have faith, it is given to you and not of your Free Will:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘faith’] not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).
Is the faith of yourself? True or False? This Scripture states that is is NOT of yourself. God’s words, NOT MINE. If you don’t like it, speak to him about it.
Additionally, you can’t even be saved of your own Free Will but instead it is by the GRACE of God.
Another Witness?
“I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of Who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Gal. 2:20). WOW!
Notice it is not faith IN the Son of God but the exact Faith OF the Son of God…let us make it clear…it is HIS faith, not ours until he Gives it to us. Again, NO Free Will…not even in our faith!
Another Witness?
“…and what have you that you did not RECEIVE….?” (I Cor. 4:7).
Yes, even your faith you have received as this Scripture and the others above appear to confirm. Remember, EVERYTHING according to the WILL of God.
You can’t even repent, if not for God.
“Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS you to repentance?” (Rom. 2:4).
Your “Free Will” doesn’t lead you to repent..Absolutely NOT….it is the Goodness of God!
Another Witness?
This one is rather clear like the others!
“I am the vine, you are the branches … for without me you can do NOTHING” (John 15:5).
YOU can do NOTHING but for the father. Where do we get Free Will out of that Scripture? Impossible’!
Another Witness?
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…” (John 5:19).
Now this is a Good one. Christians make a claim that although Jesus (The Son of God Himself) can do NOTHING but for the Father, SOMEHOW they have the ability to do what Jesus could not do? WOW! They put themselves ABOVE Jesus Christ Himself when they say they have Free Will but Jesus Didn’t.
Another Witness?
“Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…” (John 19:10-11).
Seems Jesus made it clear it was Pilate didn’t have Free Will to do as he wanted. But every Christian thinks they have Free Will according to Scripture.
Another Witness?
Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Rom. 9:20-21).
Does the clay have free will to form itself? Absolutely NOT!
Another Witness?
When God’s time came to release Israel from bondage, we read this:
“And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them” (Ex. 2:23-25).
And just what “caused” Israel to ”cry unto God?” Their own free will? No. ”Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried…” There is always a cause, but it is never man’s fabled free will.
Just how much of this release from bondage was dependant upon the will of the Children of Israel? And is it by our own will that we also repent and come out of our Egypt of sin and bondage? Or is it all of God?
“Wherefore say unto the children of Israel,
I am the Lord and
I will bring you out from under the burden of the Egyptians, and
I will rid you out of their bondage, and
I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: And
I will take you to Me for a people, and
I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that
I am the Lord your God, which brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And
I will bring you in unto the land, concerning that which
I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and
I will give it you for an heritage:
I am the Lord” (Ex. 6:6-8).
Eleven times in one sentence, we read God saying that it is “I“ [GOD], and not man’s will that, performs these miracles. When God says that He will cause a dozen national and international interventions of colossal proportions, how are the millions of people involved “free” to do anything but react according to what God causes to come about?
Guess what? Christians will continue to say they have Free Will….Amazing.
Another Witness?
“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil” (Jer. 13:23).
Another Witness?
“Or despise you the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom. 2:4).
What leads us to repentance? The goodness of our illusionary God-given “free will?” NO, “…the GOODNESS OF GOD…”
Another Witness?
“Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: FORGOD DID SEND ME BEFORE YOU TO PRESERVE LIFE” (Gen. 45:5).
Who sent him? God…not his own free will.
Remember God said, He Changes NOT! Always the same, today, yesterday and forever!
Another Witness?
“And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive” (Gen. 50:18-20).
It seems all those things that happened in the lives of many where all part of what God willed. None of them could have done anything other than what God made them do. amazing….Christians still say they have free will?
Another Witness?
“For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, [this is the cause an force behind the "Christian" walk. ‘His workmanship’ in action, not some presumed freedom of the will in action] created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10
Let us not forget the great example that Jesus made to show the disciples that they don’t have free will and will do exactly as God planned.
Yes, Jesus told them they would deny him. They were sure they had free will and said, impossible, we would never…NEVER deny you. Jesus,
knowing they didn’t have free will said, Yes, you will deny me. They again thinking it was their choice stated, NO, we will never deny you my lord.
Folks….what happened? They denied him. Just one of many examples of how the bible demonstrates you don’t truly have free will.
If anything in the universe has ever malfunctioned contrary to the intention of the Creator and Designer “God”, then the flaw is in the Inventor, not the invention! GOD IS THE POTTER: WE ARE THE CLAY! According to Scripture!
Clearly God believes he is the potter but Christian think he doesn’t have this power.
578 Comments
November 21, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Now that you have read my post, notice that if “yet all is of God” that it would include Gay People and Child Molesters and anything else you that you agree with or disagree with. Everything Good and Evil is OF God. This is pure scripture. Yes, even EVIL things like molesting a child “yet all is of God” and “i create the WICKED for the Evil day” and he “created the waster to destroy” and yes, he created EVIL.
With all the scriptures posted on this blog concerning free will and that yes, ALL is according to the will of God, one can not dispute that even the molesting of a child is OF GOD. Not only is if OF HIM, he watches it happen, and decides to do NOTHING to stop it. Yes, according to scripture, God is everywhere and sees all and is all powerful and therefore could stop it. Yet after hearing the cries of a child, God decides to NOT stop it and let it happen. Why? Because it panned it and appointed a time for it to happen.
See how clear scriptures can be?
many will say it is out of context. I ask you if it is out of context, are you telling me that NOT all is of God and not ALL is according to his will? Did god not created the evil and the wicked? Because the bible seems to have god thinking he did all those things.
Peace
April 28, 2009 at 7:04 pm
The difference between you reading the Bible and I (as a Christian) reading the Bible is that you are searching for the answers and I am searching to know more about God. Everything you mentioned actually proves freewill and God’s mission to bestow freewill. I saw mentions of grace throughout your entry. Grace is the power God gives us to do the right things. Because the bottom line is, there is temptations and without God’s grace we would fall slaves to those temptations every time. Much like a man who is blind. His world becomes somewhat limited. It is so, a man without Jesus Christ (God) is also blind and is hence limited. Luke 4:18 – Jesus says, The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed. Jesus is here to bring freedom, restoring freewill. The bottom line is, there is a war in all of us. We want to do good but always seem to mess up. Jesus gives grace that brings freedom and salvation.
April 29, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I do appreciate your judgment of me and why I read the bible. I always enjoy Christians telling me why I do something as they seem to know better than anyone why I or others do what they do and of course. they like to tell us how they do it the right way. Praise you.
Apparently, you know nothing about me but have some magical powers to make those judgements about me and in fact, false judgments. Jesus would be proud of you…right? haha.
Fact is, I was like you and I was a christian and i searched to know more about God and likely, much more than you did. I actually gave my life to him, to helping others in his name and to the study of “his word”. Unlike you, i discovered the truth. One day you may find the truth as well.
If you think that by God operating all and all and by All being by God and by god being the potter and you being the clay and that everything is already planned and determined by him, that it gives you free will. Good for you. you need to believe it. you were taught to believe it.
FACT is that people that believe in Buddha or the Hindu version of God or even in Krishna make all the same claims as you about their God. Yet they can’t prove any of those claims….just like you. When you say grace is the power God gives us….you have NOT one shred of evidence grace comes from God. Just like those that follow Krishna can not show us that anything comes from their God. Amazing how there is just as much evidence for Krishna and Zues as there is for your version of God. But you keep believing your version is the real one because you need to do it or fear all your life that your god of moral love will torture you in a pit of fire for an eternity of pain. So, you are required to believe…or else.
Can you prove that a man without jesus christ has a life that is limited? prove it..really, prove any of your claims or your judgments of me. FACT is you can prove none of them. Since i left this God of yours named Jesus Christ, my limits in life were lifted. I had freedom and experiences that enriched my life beyond my dreams. Of course i can’t prove that it is because i left christ that all this good has happened to me. I would not be so ignorant to make such a claim that i cannot prove or a claim about a God that I can not prove. However, the fact is that i took responsibility for my life, myself and my future and didn’t rely on Jesus for anything. I was able to take control of all matters in my life and direct my path. You are not free to do that as you are bound by this threat of torture and a magical promise of reward if you believe in what you are told. Basically, you are a slave to the threat of what will happen. Slaves were often afraid of what could happen if they didn’t follow what they are told.
The bible says many things. i see you like to quote only those things you think are good or approve of. however, god says “shall there be evil in a city and I (god) have not done it?” so, shall a child be molested in a city and God has not done it? apparently, your moral god molests children. but then again, that makes since, because your god says “god operates all in all” and he “created the wicked for the evil day” and just like your god drowned little babies in his great flood that killed all life on earth but those on the boat….your god is clearly capable of doing rather vile things to children. but you go ahead and call him good and moral. in my world, killing babies and molesting them is evil, vile and sick….even if some version of god does it.
so please prove jesus is here. you make the claim..now prove it. the onus of proof is on you.
i have no problem doing good. it is nice that you admit you don’t do good. i don’t see why people have a problem doing good, i have no problem doing it. maybe you need to learn the truth because it appears your version of god is not providing that inspiration for you to not do bad. what is the problem? i personally have no war in me and feel sorry for those that do. often it is those that claim to believe in some form of god that have such conflict with their inner self.
prove jesus gives grace. it is amazing that you make many claims for many things about a god you can’t prove. amazing. JUST like those muslims or mormons or hinduist or buddhist. amazing you all make claims and NONE of your provide evidence in support of your claims or of your version of god.
logic would tell us that this would indicate none of you really have a god but you have been fooled into believing there is one for many reason. often the threat of torture.
peace to you and i do hope you find truth in life
May 6, 2009 at 5:14 pm
It’s a free country? I thought you were doing all this based on logic. Well thank you for the good conversation. It was a pleasure. I hope you find what you’re looking for and then I hope you find truth (which is beyond logic). This is my last post. You should come see me over at http://trevauhn.wordpress.com
I’m not sure i’m as entertaining as you but you might find something interesting. God Bless You!!
April 30, 2009 at 8:03 am
My judgment of you is no more than an attempt to evaluate your intentions by the tone and use of your words. Please do not take it personal, judgment of others is a habit we humans often fall prey to. Your own comments betray that human trait, “I searched to know more about God and likely, much more than you did.” I think that was evidence of those magical powers you were talking about. I think I’m rubbing off on you.
Well here goes another one of those judgments again. But this time I hope not to offend you quite as much as the last time. One cannot simply find God by working and helping others. God isn’t that kind of God. God is pleased by faith, belief, and trust, not necessarily helping others. My help to others come from my love for God. God does not require you to help others in exchange for his love. His love is free. From the use of your words, it would sound as if you were exposed to salvation by works. If I had to gain my salvation by working, then yes, I would have no freewill. But the truth is salvation is freely extended for you to take it.
Please show me in the bible where my God of moral love will torture you in a burning hell. My God is love and mercy and grace and outside of his presence is burning hell. Those who turn away from him will find themselves locked off from the mercy of joy and love, they now freely enjoy and abuse. Hell is the place outside of God. It is not his intention for us to be at that place, but like Adam and Even in the garden, we are to be in his presence.
A man without Jesus Christ is limited and lacks freewill. Why? Well let’s shine a spot light on you. You by your own freewill have chosen not to be a Christian, but yet you have devoted so much time in writing these blogs to disprove God. If you were indeed a free man, you would be able to simply accept your belief in no God and go about your own business. But there is something else which drives you. Something which drives you to write elaborate blogs on the foolishness of God. My friend are you not a slave to that something. Well, I believe you are correct in saying that I am a slave. But it is better for me to be a slave to a cause higher than my own. I live to glorify a loving God and I have no shame in that. Your labor in creating this blog makes obvious who you intend to glorify (yourself). What? You don’t believe me, well listen to your own words: “the fact is that I took responsibility for MY life, MYSELF and MY future and didn’t rely on Jesus for anything.” You have actually made yourself a god. Your faith is in yourself. I know that my tone seems a bit harsh, but I say it in hope that you will see a different point of view and not simply accept your own. If what you say is true, then it should be able to stand under the pressure of another criticism.
Amos 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? First off, this verse is apart of a prophesy, which contains many symbols and are not to be taken literal (much like a poem that says “the trees clap their hands; trees obviously don’t have hands but yet it’s a symbol of an idea). God signed a covenant with Israel and Israel promised to keep their end of the bargain (much like a marriage), but they turned their backs on the marriage (becoming an unfaithful wife; Hosea)and God became angry with them. He removed his grace and protection and hence caused other armies to ravage Israel. In actuality, God through Amos was warning them: Is it not truelogic to hear the war cry of the enemy and be afraid; normal cities would hear and hence guard themselves. But Israel simply ignored it and kept doing evil in the sight of the Lord. The same with those of Noah. Those people were warned of a flood for 70+ years. They did not listen but went about doing what they pleased. God is not going to force people into the ark because then he would be violating their freewill. Those people chose their path, which lead to their destruction.
You’re correct when you saying killing babies are vile and evil. I believe the same, life is to be protected. Abortion should be outlawed. Actually it was the inspiration of God that saved Moses from being killed as an infant. It was also the inspiration of God that saved Jesus from also being killed. Jesus also says that unless you become like one of these (children) you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Children are not molested but protected. “Parents, do not provoke your children to wrath.” The commandment of love was to be taught to the children: to love God and love each other.
In all honesty, I don’t have to do a thing to prove God. Simply look at creation itself. Take the beauty of creation and you will see Jesus. I will also pray that you receive a revelation of Jesus and that will be your proof. Yet Jesus says, blessed are those who believe and have not seen.
You are correct when you say that there is a conflict inside me and other Christians. But why is there a conflict. The conflict is between the good nature of God fighting versus my own evil desires. I also want to take life into my own hands, but i’ve tried I and ended up more upset, angry, and miserable. So, let my testimony be the proof. The before and after snapshots of my life is proof of God. There is nothing in this world that can drastically transform me like Jesus Christ has. I’ll leave it at that.
April 30, 2009 at 8:22 am
Like I have stated time and time again. You and others NEVER provide proof of ANY of your claims. However, you are good at making excuses and you should be, you have to do it every day of your life.
I love it when people like you say we just need to look at creation itself to prove God. The statement proves how ignorant many “believers” have become and how they need to grasp at anything in order to attempt to prove their God. Let us say that your claim that we only need to look at creation to see there is a God. Guess what? Does that prove your version of God is real? NO. Don’t be stupid. It no more proves your God did it, or the Buddhist God or the Hindu God or the God of scientology. You can’t even be honest. FACT is that NONE of us humans know if there is a God and if there was, which version it is.
Like i have stated many times, your god is no more real than any other god. you god claims he is the only god and i am sure you support that. Yet all these others that claim another god, believe exactly as you do and you can’t demonstrate their God is not real. weak case indeed.
You can read my post on the evils of God and get a small example of the true evils of the christian god. i clearly make my case using scripture and i back up my statements with scripture and logic. you provide no proof of any kind of anything you state about a god. Don’t feel bad, this is exactly the same for every christian and EVERY other follower of other gods. you are NO different. sorry
April 30, 2009 at 8:35 am
you can be sure i don’t take anything personal. i don’t see judgment as a habit but instead it is an intelligent part of our survival in this world and likely part of our evolutionary need. nothing wrong with it. kind of like sex with anyone, or saying words that some may not agree with. just because you have an imaginary friend that you believe tells you that some things are wrong or right doesn’t mean it is true. many people have imaginary friends and other gods and they believe their versions tell them things as well.
FACT is that you can’t prove your version of God is real. Yeah, you don’t have to prove it to me but you say that because it is an excuse because you KNOW you can NOT Prove it. I promise you. I promise you that those that follow Buddha or krishna or allah can not prove their god either. That is just a fact and i understand that facts are not welcome in religion.
Take the beauty of creation and you will see Jesus? Prove it. Prove I don’t see Buddha, or Krishna. You are clearly brainwashed and delusional. It is amazing how christian learn to lie and make things up without ever providing one shred of evidence for ANY of their claims about their version of God. Prove the virgin birth, walking on water, talking snake, lake of fire, heaven, angels, satan, demons…the list goes on and one of claims. yet NOT ONE of them can you prove. You can only make excuses and more claims. When you say look at creation and you see jesus…that is but another claim. it is ignorance
April 30, 2009 at 8:46 am
notice how you basically ignore any direct questions and how you ignore any links to logic. you just keep making new claims and providing your opinion. You completely ignore the other gods that others claim. i realize you believe you are above them and have some greater understanding than they could have. guess what? they think the same about themselves and that you are missing the real god. isn’t it funny. NOT one of your many believers seem to be able to provide any evidence that your version of god is real and each of you claim yours is and the others are not. wow.
i am sorry to hear you have evil desires. you should get treatment. i thought if you have jesus in your heart you would have the strength to win over those evil desires. just what evil desires do you have…sounds sick to me.
Let my testimony be PROOF the before and after snap shots of my life are proof there is no god. there is nothing in this world that can drastically transform me like truth has. did you notice those states are like yours and again, only claims. i have heard them stated by other people that follow the muslim god or krishna and even buddha. are you telling me they are wrong and you are right? prove it. you are so silly.
the christian religion alone can’t agree on these words of god. there are over 300 denominations of the christian religion alone. wow. you all can’t agree on what God’s words state and yet all of you are quoting scripture attempting to claim you know what he states. pure ignorance.
Provide some facts…facts…evidence….proof. I promise you that you can not…I know for a fact that you can not provide one shred of proof of the claims about your god. NOT ONE.
Here are some key words defined by the dictionary that you should be familiar with and then provide your proof or consider all you statements a LIE.
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid
True: in accordance with fact or reality
Reality: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement
Idealism: the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, esp. unrealistically
Notional: existing only in theory or as a suggestion or idea
Superstition: excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural being
Myth: a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
Cults: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
April 30, 2009 at 10:13 am
Another FACT is that you can’t disprove anything I’m saying. Your logic did not disprove anything I said.
Alright, proving to you is going to really stretch me, because you seem to be a hard headed one. But I’m up for the task (just kidding). Let’s take a look at what the other gods claim and what Jesus claims. First of all no other gods (except Allah; i have to brush up on my muslim) claim to be the creator of the world. So therefore, they can’t be placed within the same framework of the God of Israel. Secondly, Buddha, and many of the gods of eastern religions never claimed to be god, yet he was worshiped as one. Scientology, and Buddha, and the Hindu are all constructed by man. But Jesus Christ is the only one to claim to be the Son of God. He is the only one who claims to have come from a realm outside of time, a realm higher than man. Isn’t that a fantastic requirement of a God. What good is a god if he can be destroyed physically or by reason. On the other hand, (scripture proof) in the beginning was the word (Jesus Christ) and the word was with God and the word was God. Through him all things were made. Therefore, Jesus’ claims are exclusive and stands above the rest. He is God, He was not created but he created all things. If you look at the complexities of life through the science of biology, chemistry, physics, it will become evident to you that there is intelligent design behind it all. A beautiful garden doesn’t simply appear out of nothing, but there is a gardener.
He put on flesh and was a human, yet he was still God. No other gods can make such a claim.
Secondly, on Jesus has really dealt with the problem of humanity. He died on the cross so that we might be forgiven of our sins. One psychologist wrote a newsletter explaining that it is essential that human beings recognize sin. Jesus dealt with that problem on the cross.
My friend search for God and you will find him. On the other hand, if you search to disprove him you’ll be left frustrated to make up whatever philosophy sweetens your tea.
July 7, 2009 at 2:08 pm
yes Mr.Trevauhn Grant, i agree with your words about this person “True Logic”.i have read all his posts and comments,all i can find from that is this person want every one to believe his words.he is not a guy who listen to others.
also i got a doubt if as he said in his post and like he commented on others, he is not a person who is following what he commented on others.he had did the same mistakes,that done by others which critisised.as per the bible words he is trying to find dust in others eyes,but failed to notice the straw in his eyes.
to “true logic”
I will say”you are a coward”.because you are hidding behind some ones pix. discussing mores issues and big issues here,but you are in fake identity. you are the owner of this blog,but u are not ready to expose your true image or name here. why? , but i have noticed all the peoples here are using their true identity atleast once…..
April 30, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I guess i’m a bit confused as to what kind of proof you’re looking for. I think our definitions are a bit mixed. Please define for me the proof you seek. Also, if there is sufficient proof would you actually be willing to change your views.
Alright let me ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Is the world perfect? Is there evil in the world? Among all we see, is there a purpose to it all.
May 1, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I provided you with the definition of proof, evidence and a few other terms in case you didn’t understand. They are our standard, english definition of proof and evidence. What don’t you understand about it? Of course, you are welcome to makeup your own definitions but then again, if everyone did that we would have people claiming all kinds of things without proof or evidence. Wait…that is what we have, isn’t it?
If there was sufficient proof, would I change my views? Of course, that would only be logical. There is more than enough sufficient proof that your version of God is not likely but I see you don’t change your views. Nor, do I care if you change your views.
Is the world perfect? I guess I can play the game you do and say, Maybe our definitions are a bit mixed. However, what does the world being perfect or evil have to do with God? Are you attempting to make another claim you can’t backup with facts? Is there a purpose to it all? FACT is I don’t know and you don’t know. If you say you know, then you are lying. Just like you do not know if there is a God or if it is your God that is a God. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact. You believe he is real, but you can NOT prove it. Again, the muslims can’t prove their God nor can those that follow any other God like Buddha or Krishna or even some superstition. It is a belief.
May 4, 2009 at 5:07 am
Well sir, I believe the proof you’re looking for is substantial evidence, whether physical or logical thought. On the other hand, I don’t think we’re agreeing on what is indeed logical. I believe I’ve place substantial evidence on the table. Evidence based on psychological studies which I have mixed with a bit of theology, but you have simply thrown it out as not being good enough. Therefore, if the evidence cannot be based on science and not on theology, then what kind of proof do you seek.
Honestly, (WARNING: another judgement) One of my best friends is a self proclaimed atheist. I showed him proof. Physical proof that he varified with his own eyes. Proof that was absolutely undeniable, one that he could touch and see for himself. Even though he admitted that the evidence is overwhelming in favor of God, he still through it out and said that he’d rather stick to atheism. I would say he’s even more logical than you, but it’s his logic that keeps him from faith, because in order for God to be a proper God, he would have to have a higher logical center than humans (who he created). Doesn’t that make logical sense.
I believe no matter how much logical proof you get you’re still going to throw it out as not enough. If a man shows up at your door and says his name is Jesus, and shows you the scars in his hands, and heals everyone in your family from all their deseases, and flys back into the heavens, I believe after about a week you’d probably start saying, “it was all in my imagination.” I know the bashing i’m going to get from my statements, but I hope you don’t delete this entry. That’s the reason I asked you for a definition of proof. Are you looking for God to show up at your doorstep. Are you looking for verifiable science. Are you looking for historical verifiable truths. What kind of proof do you seek.
Looking at our world today, there are murderers who kill little children. Look at the world trade center. Look at nation heads wanting to nuke other nations off the face of the planet. there is hunger, bad economy, people killing themselves out of depression and lacking hope. This is evil, evidence of an imperfect world. If you call it anything else (or say you doing know) , you are throwing out the evidence so as to ignore the proof. The strange thing is, there are many who are working (as you have said) to make this world a better place. But you and I have been working, my father has worked, his father worked, and still this planet is no better. Therefore, your theory of taking life into your own hands has been proven (here is your proof) by history to be useless. If there is evil in this world, there is nothing you can do about it. Still yet there is a hunger for things to be better (hence the reason we work). therefore, doesn’t your human nature expect something better (logically speaking). If not, why work. The reason you help others on a daily basis is evidence enough that you want things to be better in this world. Yet, everything you’ve done amounts to nothing. Therefore, there is a need for God. There is a need for a Savior in Jesus Christ. I can hereby go into reason why Jesus fits the bill and no other god could ever take his place. This I will continue some other time (unfortunately life does not permit me to sit here and type response all day…oh well).
May 4, 2009 at 8:59 am
Again, you ignore the definition of evidence and proof and want to make up your own definition of what is evidence, proof or logical.
Let me help you again:
Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid
True: in accordance with fact or reality
Reality: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement
Idealism: the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, esp. unrealistically
Notional: existing only in theory or as a suggestion or idea
Let us not forget the word Logical:
of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument : a logical impossibility.
• characterized by clear, sound reasoning : the information is displayed in a simple and logical fashion.
• (of an action, development, decision, etc.) natural or sensible given the circumstances : it is a logical progression from the job before.
• capable of clear rational thinking : her logical mind.
There is nothing logical about talking snakes, men living in the belly of a whale, walking on water, invisible beings, virgin births and so on.
I would suggest you try to understand what the words mean before you claim to have provided your proof/evidence. What you provide is no more than someone will provide to prove the muslim version of God (Allah) or what others will provide to prove their version of God. You belief is your opinion. Nothing more.
Your story about your atheist friend is rather humorous. Notice, you didn’t tell me or the rest of the world what your proof was. Just what was that Physical Proof? Really, provide it to us all. You WILL not and you CAN not because you have NO PROOF…that is just a FACT. Now you are exposed as a liar and your credibility is zero.
In order for Buddha to be God, he would have to have a logical center higher than humans. Doesn’t that make sense? Really, we can take your words and apply them to any God and we can even make up other stuff and make more claims and call it logic. Yet you still provide NOT ONE SHRED of your evidence there is a God or that your particular version of God is the ONLY one. remarkable. You are working overtime in an attempt to make excuses for something you have no proof of. you need to believe, you need your invisible buddy to love you and care for you and promise you something better in life. So you make excuses.
You can believe whatever you want about me. that is not the point. the fact still remains, you have yet to provide proof. instead of providing proof, you make your judgment of what i would do if you had proof. funny how you avoid the facts and then attempt to put the blame on me for why i wouldn’t believe. absurd
You stated you provided evidence, real, physical and verifiable evidence to your friend, provide it to the rest of us. put it on youtube. the evidence would be extraordinary and the world would suddenly believe, if it were true. so go ahead, wow us.
yes, there are murderers that kill little children. The Christian God apparently watches these murders, hears the cries of the children and does nothing to stop it. The Christian God created the murderers “i create the wicked for the evil day” and “i create the waster to destroy” and he says he is the “potter” and man is the “clay” and he makes one for honor and one for dishonor. Yes, it is your God that “created evil” and “appointed a time for every matter and every event” that would include the murder of a child. so you can blame men but according to God’s apparent word, he is the one in control of it all. “shall there be evil in a city and the lord has not done it?” so you see, i can provide evidence that if your god is real and that is his word, then he is the one that does it all. because we know according to the bible, it is “according to his will” and not man’s.
Of course i want things to be better in this world. most people do. religion has been around for 1000’s of years and history shows us what it brings, killing, war, torture, abuse, murder, slaughter, intolerance, racist, sexist, slavery and it just happens to support it all. look at our recent war in iraq. a Christian elected government under george bush the christians. lead by the party of Christian and family values. lies to go to war, which murders/kills millions of people and then tortures. that same president was re-elected by the religious and still supported by them to this day. is that what jesus would do? of course not. but large numbers of people that claim this jesus to be true, support all those things jesus would not. again, absurd.
so please, in your next post, provide the proof you claim you have. list the proof by numbers. make sure it is verifiable and physical as you claim you showed your atheist friend. remember, you know the definition of proof, evidence and more now. i provided it to you twice and yet you like to ignore facts.
i am not trying to bash you. i am asking for honest, truthful evidence to support what you claim to be real. that is all. NONE of the others that follow other gods provide it. NOT ONE. JUST like you.
May 5, 2009 at 12:27 pm
A liar you say? Such a bold statement. I’m surprised that such a self proclaimed logical man like yourself would submit to such lows as name calling. I intentionally didn’t give my testimony, because even if I did, you would simply refute it as not enough. You have already called me a liar, when indeed you know nothing about me. Only God knows the intentions of my heart, a secret to great for you.
The proof is as simple as this my friend. For many years (8 years to be exact) I suffered from a chronic pain in my left arm. All through my younger school years I took strong pain pills to numb the pain. It was something which came periodically. The pain would last for a week and a half and then dissipate. My friend the atheist was there with me through most of this ordeal. I went to the doctor who was only able to give me more pills and not a cause or solution to my problem. I did find out (from the doctor) however that there was a inflamed palette in the joint of my left shoulder. Every two months or so, it would grow bigger, causing the ligaments, muscle, and bone to rub the wrong way. My entire left arm was left immobilized and in pain. Anyways, long story short.
I was up one night in pain. Because I usually loose sleep in this ordeal. I was watching Benny Hinn on tv, while laying in bed. He was somewhere in Africa (i think) and he was holding a healing crusade. I saw those people being healed on TV and for some reason I felt happy for them. I saw some walking for the first time, some hearing for the first time, and others simply getting out of bed after a debilitating disease snatched their freedom. I also started thinking about my own situation. I knew that there was a God and that he could heal me. So I stretched my right hand towards the television and starting praying Jesus Christ to heal me. I fell asleep after the program was finished and woke up without pain. From that day I have not suffered another attack of the sorts. Its been about 5 years now and I have been pain free. Didn’t need anymore doctors or pills. The proof my friend is in my own history and evident from eye witnesses and doctors report. I have been the recipient of other physical healing but time would not allow to mention. I’ve seen and witnessed the miraculous with my own eyes.
One special case in particular, a woman’s uneven legs caused much back problems for her. I seen/heard prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ poured on her and actually saw her shorter leg grow to match the longer one. This was not only witnessed by me, but 50+ onlookers. If you seek God you will find him. But you’re not seeking God so you will not find him, you will find whatever you want. If you want to find proof to disprove Christianity then you will find it. If you seek God you will find him and his glorious miracles that accompany him.
Of course, in telling you this I leave myself open to your nonsensical criticism, but I’m not only writing this for you. I’m wasn’t working to merely disprove you. I didn’t pour my time into you only, because I know that you would come up with something else to attempt to make what i’m saying sound foolish. But I did it for everyone else who reads your blogs. Thank you for giving me that audience.
Lastly, in response to one of your comments: “In order for Buddha to be God, he would have to have a logical center higher than humans. Doesn’t that make sense?”
Yes I agree. If Buddha claims to be god then, yes he would need a higher logical center than us humans. But Buddha never said he was indeed higher than human levels. He never did claim that he could ascend beyond the human potential. Buddha never said that he was god. It is man who attributed godlike qualities to him.
Well sir it was fun, but that was my last quote on this particular subject. I hope you had fun as I did. It was indeed educational, to say the least.
May 5, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Sir, I cannot account for the amputee, or for those who still cannot see, or for the deaf, all I can tell you is that Jesus Christ healed me. Benny Hinn didn’t heal me and I don’t defend him. We are men and we make mistakes, so therefore I’m not claiming that Benny Hinn did anything. On the other hand, Jesus Christ the son of God, healed me. Of course, as I said before, I knew that you would easily throw eye witness accounts out the window and simply call them lies. Just as I said a few posts back that if Jesus should show up at your doorstep you would simply say it’s your imagination. That is the reason I didn’t give the proof in the first place (my reason now has changed). You are not seeking God, you are seeking to disprove God. Hence you will not see God.
The fact that Jesus healed me I can prove and it is not something you can ever disprove. Calling it a lie doesn’t disprove it.
July 7, 2009 at 2:19 pm
ok i am ready to prove you there is god and he is doing every thing in this world….
before that i want a proof here…
what do you believe in? prove me…..
May 5, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Have I sought other gods. Why should I. I have have a real dollar bill in my hand, I know it’s real, it smells real, it looks real, the bank says it’s real, then there is no need to look for a fake one. I have a copy of the koran and it doesn’t compare to the real thing. It just doesn’t. I choose a God of love over a god who seeks to destroy.
It’s funny, because I was thinking of post all these comments on my own blog to see what other people think. Sometimes it’s good to get another opinion.
If you’re going to prove that God is not real, you can’t use scripture to disprove him. Isn’t that logical. If you’re attempting to say that God is false, then you’re also saying that Scripture is false. So how can you use something that is false to prove your statement of truth. You therefore have to use other proofs to disprove God. You can’t use something you don’t believe in.
Anyways, write another blog. Something interesting for me to comment on. This is getting more fun by the minute.
May 5, 2009 at 10:51 pm
I have the real truth in my hands. why should i seek your version when i have the real truth?
I can use scripture to prove or disprove anything I want. did you forget, this is a free country and we have the freedom of speech. do you realize many have died to give me and you that freedom. prove there is a god that seeks to destroy and prove that it is not your God. you see, all you can do is makes claims and never back them up. you claim yours is real and they claim theirs is real and neither of you can prove one or the other is wrong or right. shock? not hardly. it is called fact.
i can use anything i dont’ believe in to prove it is not real. you can use darwins words if you want and use them to prove he is wrong. you can attempt it and many do. you don’t realize that you dont’ make the rules. you are all caught up in your almighty pride and you think you can tell me or others what we can or can not do. sorry, even your god can’t give you those powers.
i have shown time and time again, that you can’t prove your God. i have shown time and time again that your statements are no different than those of another person that believes in yet another god.
i have shown by the word you claim is god’s word that evil is done by him and created by him. “shall there be evil in a city and the lord has not done it?” there are many scriptures that expose your god to be rather sick and vile. yes, your god that drowned most all life on earth in a slow, torturous flood…to include babies and the unborn child in the womb…abortion. i expose those facts to those that might fall victim to your lies. i have exposed you to be a liar and shown you attempt to make your own definitions of words like proof, fact and evidence.
i do enjoy you coming back here and never providing any proof for any of your statements because in the end, it only exposes your lies to those that are seeking truth.
i happen to know more about the bible and scripture than you, i know about the history of many religions and how your religion is just a copy of those that came before it.
that is life, get used to it.
peace
July 17, 2009 at 4:40 am
It’s been a while. This single post has received so much attention. I commend you truelogic for writing something so controversial. Nice work!
I was looking for the comment left by Mr. Ambrose so I could address him directly but whatever. It doesn’t matter!
To Mr Ambrose with love. The proof is in the pudding. You used an example of a telepathic cat or something of the sort, which I’m sure dog and horse whisperers will surely object. Yes I agree that in a somewhat normal world, telepathic cats are a bit much. But when you talk about God. Wow…the very word implies someone whose intelligence blows the minds of the smartest and brightest in our society. Telepathic God? No! Revelational God, definitely. I mean, if God is God, and God is all powerful then I don’t think communicating to mere humans is all that difficult or even strange.
One thing I saw recently, which I’ve prayed for over and over again is God’s revelation to Muslims. As you might already know, extreme Muslims hate Christians with a burning passion. Peaceful Muslims want nothing to do with Christians. Yet they did not claim to see Allah, no not at all, they saw Jesus. Upon seeing Jesus, they would turn from their believe and to that of a Christian faith. The greatest proof is the one which can be found true in the lives of thousands of people.
If Christianity was a false religion, it would have fallen on it’s face from all the ridicule and persecution it received. Even the mighty Islam is slowly crumbling at the seams. They lasted this long by brute force and by brute force they are falling. Anyways, I wasn’t planning on arguing this time around but I simply wanted to testify of the saving power of Jesus Christ. God Bless You, I love you and I pray that we will all see the truth more clearly!
July 17, 2009 at 8:36 am
if the other religions were false they would have fallen long ago, but they haven’t either. Christianity is also slowly crumbling if you happen to read reports and the number of youth that are not attending to church is at record numbers. look through history, religions stay around for a long time and some fall and the others have been around for a very long time. look at the jewish religion.
no one has seen jesus and i happen to know SEVERAL Christians that have switched to the muslim god. additionally, extreme christians are just a dangerous as extreme muslims. look at all the white hate groups who are extreme christian groups. they are taking over the military and recent news has highlighted the danger of these people.
Christians always say things like “if christianity was a false religion”….. Notice, they don’t say, here is proof that it is not false. They continue to make claims which is what you have done. You claim that “if christianity was a false religion it would have fallen on it’s face ….”. Really? Prove this is true. People still believe in Krishna and he came long before Jesus. Therefore, he is real?
Christians make claim after claim after claim and never bother to back any of them up. Got a picture of God or jesus or a voice recording? No, because christians say it is not allowed for some reason. But they say they see him or talk to him and he talks back. They say he heals and yet he has never healed an amputee. Amazing, he heals anyone unless it is an obvious sign that it must have come from God, then he won’t do it? ridiculous
religion is dangerous, it teaches our kids to accept claims without a shred of evidence which teaches ignorance. not only the simple claims you make here and don’t prove but the many others that relate to your god and just so happens were claims made about Gods before yours. Prove virgin birth, talking snake, talking bush, healing an amputee, flying in the sky with satan, satan, demons, angels, walking on water, living in a belly of a whale, dead coming out of grave and walking into the city, rising from the dead and floating bodily into the sky….think about it,,,,these are ridiculous claims, ….absurd and you can’t even come close to proving one of them.
the christian religion was rather common in the netherlands and if you watched fox news lately, you will see how it has basically wiped out. If you are religious in that country, you are basically laughed at. therefore, if christianity was true, then it wouldnt’ be laughed out of a country. do you see how stupid my statement is? just because they laugh it out of a country doesn’t make it false. it is false because there is NO evidence to demonstrate it is true, not even remotely. there is lots of evidence to point to it NOT being true. the fact that they make so many claims they can’t back up is good evidence that something might not be true.
December 1, 2008 at 1:42 am
You seem to have an open mind, and you’ve put a lot of thought into this stuff. There’s a lot of Biblical searching in all of your posts, but I don’t get what you’re after. There is no Biblical PROOF of anything. If anything, the Bible can support what YOU are trying to say, but proof implies truth and it seems like you operate upon the premise that the Bible is contradictory and written by men, NOT God.
If that’s the case, you might just be calling your posts proof to piss off the right-wing Evangelicals, which is fine. I’m cool with that! You’re doing a good job, and I support some of your overarching ideas. If you’re trying to prove that you’re intellectually superior to Christians and that your theological “logic” is way better than what Christian thinkers have come up with throughout the past 2000 years, then you fall seriously short of that goal.
I’m interested in what YOUR main beliefs are, and what you truly believe about all this stuff. I don’t know yet if you intrigue me or annoy me.
Jason
December 1, 2008 at 2:02 am
Jason, thanks for your comment. I am sure I annoy many from my post. I can say that I am NOT intellectually superior to anyone. I am just your average person that likes to stir discussion. I do not believe in any of the God and I do not claim to know any of them or what any of them would do. I do not claim to know how any of this (our world and life) came to be. I would need some proof to provide those answers and I don’t have any proof. Just like Christians. Yet Christians claim what they say is FACT and many claim they have proof, yet never provide it. Some claim the bible is their proof and yet don’t accept another book by a man named Darwin as any proof.
I believe that science is more likely to give us the answers we search for and not a book about gods.
My point is that Christians preach their version of God and this story of hell fire and torture by this loving God which they call moral? A god that claims to control EVERYTHING and ALL…which would include the molesting of Children. A god that is, according to the bible, watching a child be molested, hearing the cries and then making a “moral” decision to not stop it because he is the one that caused it? “if evil happens, have I not done it?” Wow.
So, i find nothing wrong with encouraging our youth to discuss it openly with all and not have some fear of mom and dad or church condemning them to hell or whatever version of punishment is spewed by some other religion.
Our kids have start to think critically and questions what they are told. Maybe then we can avoid the intolerance caused by religion or the people that follow religious leaders into a field and drink cool aide or maybe avoid burning or torturing others because they don’t believe like they are told.
so, lets put all the ideas out in the open and encourage our children to think and debate.
peace
December 1, 2008 at 2:27 am
I do think so many people, because of their stunted childhoods, have absolutely zero ability to think rationally about things. There can be no doubt that many who don’t believe in some sort of God actually think more about it than those who do. I love discussion about this, and I love to be challenged about this.
However, there are a great many Christians who don’t fall into the characterization you may subscribe to. Most modern Christian scholars agree on the notion that the Bible is not infallible, nor is it the actual Word of God. Dozens of different authors and countless translations make it nearly impossible to logically defend the Bible as the Word of God.
The problem is that there are way too many people who still believe just what scholars are telling us not to believe. So many people think that doubt is a sign of spiritual weakness, and that this doubt must be purged in order to live a healthy life with Jesus.
http://mindgrazing.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/my-thoughts-on-prayer-of-jabez/
Here’s a post I put up a while ago, but the comments are a little more interesting to this topic than the actual post. Between my sister-in-law’s comments and my responses, you can see the two major veins in thought about biblical authority.
Enjoy, and, for what it’s worth you’re not one of the annoying types… =)
December 1, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I agree with you. the problem is that every christian is happy to quote scripture when it says what they want and believe and then when it doesn’t say what they want they can make other claims like, it is not the exact word of God. so really, then why use any of it? pick a choose?
So as i posted in the top 4 posts on my blog I use the bible to show that if it is the word of god then it is clear that it doesn’t agree with what Christians teach. Or at least, it is a viable alternative.
Thanks for the comments and I will check out your post as well.
December 1, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I’m not sure that I agree with Jason quite yet. Reading through several blogs, it looks like you are picking out verses that “prove” your opinion and trying to provoke arguement.
I’m a Christian. However, I do like to think of myself as a Biblical Christ follower – not a political party member or anything else. I’m simply trying to read the Word and live out my faith.
In this posting, it appears you’ve taken a concordance and pasted all copies of “all” and “everything” to fit your thoughts. Is it wrong for a parent to wish good for their children? Is it wrong for a parent to teach their child that they need to rely on him / her for sustenance?
I do struggle with the issue of ramifications. That’s what happens when we – OR those around us – sin. As I read your blog, I see that you do as well. Sin has effects. A drunk who crashes a car and kills people sinned. He sinned by drinking to excess. He sinned by breaking the civil law. The ramifications of that sin effect many beyond himself.
Then, we have the issue of predictability. I was speaking with a friend from Lebanon. He shared that his kids in the United States act the same as his nieces and nephews in Lebanon. Different parts of the world, but we are still predictably the same. Just because we are sinful, predictable people, does not mean that God “forced” us to do something. If I leave a piece of candy on the table, I can predict that a two year old will take it. If Simon Peter verbally professes he will NEVER deny Christ and then is placed in a situation where he feels in danger, is it really so difficult to think that he would act the way he did?
Sorry this is so long. I appreciate a good discussion. I would simply like you to consider all of Scripture AND the context and culture in some of your thoughts – not just those that support what you think.
Then we can have a good discussion…
December 1, 2008 at 6:12 pm
We have free will enough to chose to obey God or to not obey God. To accept Jesus Christ or to not accept Jesus Christ. Sure we have free will to the finite knowledge that we have. With God being all knowing, from everlasting to everlasting, He see’s things from a perspective that we cannot fathom. We are finite in knowlege and perspective and God is not. We cannot understand the mind of God.
God is so loving that he gives us the ability to chose, but he knows what we will chose before we actually do. He lets us make our mistakes even when he puts an open door or a way out right in front of our faces. It is up to us to make the Godly choices with the direction He gives us in his word. When we don’t then the consequences of our sins we face.
December 1, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I am sorry that scripture happens to claim that “yet ALL is of God” and that God apparently seems to verify it by repeating it many times. Just because I happen to notice them doesn’t mean my intent is to just prove “my” point. either you believe All is of God and that he appointed a time fore every matter and every event or you don’t. it is as simple as that, in my opinion.
It is great that parents want the best for their children and that is exactly why they should be taught other opinions and provided with the true words in the bible. Not some excuse to proclaim that suddenly, for this specific situation that I do not agree with, the bible must be wrong. either it is the word of god or it is not. either all is of God or All is not. if god says that if evil happens, he has done it, then either it is true or it is not.
I do not believe I sin and have not struggle with such ideas. A drunk that crashes a care didn’t sin, he broke the law devised by men and pays the price. He doesn’t go to court and the judge say, you sinned, therefore you are punished.
It is VERY wrong for a parent to teach their child that any of the God’s are real. Because it is a lie and a lie is a sin…isn’t it? Can you prove your God is real? Can the muslim prove their god is real? the hindu? Of course not. are you going to tell us all the god’s are real? or is it wrong for those that believe in other Gods without a shred of evidence to back it up shouldn’t teach their kids of some god? it is a lie and if kids are to read the bible they will see just how sick it is.
would you teach your kids that God is good? then tell them how God drowned babies? then tell them god is still good even though he punished babies for the sins of others? now this kid grows up and calls killing babies as moral, because his/her god did it. this same god promises to torture billions. torture billions all for the fact they didn’t believe. yet hitler, if he gave his life to jesus just before he dies, he will not be tortured. wow…sick. i call it child abuse and brainwashing. if you have FACTS to support your belief and can prove to the child it is real, then go ahead. however, you do not. you cannot prove or disprove your god anymore than you can prove or disprove santa. however, we can provide much more evidence against any of the gods than we can provide for the god.
predictability? we are all human. elephants in different parts of the world act the same. dogs, cats and others act the same. i don’t get it? it is simple and expected.
look, i am not saying god forced us to do anything. i do not believe in god. i am telling you and you can see it clearly in scripture that everything you do has been planned, and appointed to happen….according to scripture. so, apparently, your god is telling you that you are no different than a computer. you are programmed to do exactly what he planned you would do. EVerything according to HIS will….or you can tell him it is not all according to his will.
no need to say sorry, i love to read the views of others and debate. understand, i have read the bible, many, many, many times and still study it today. when i was a christian, i had all the red lettering memorized and even parts of the new test. then i started to study it using hebrew and greek references and that is when i figured out what the bible has said.
read the first 4 posts on this blog and it is very clear and it is the word of god. you didn’t supply scripture that told me i was wrong. you supplied your opinion.
is yet all of god or not? God seems to think it is all of him.
“mens steps are not of himself” and ” you are the clay”. you know the potter controls the clay. “god operates all in all” operate, ….to control the function.
thanks for the comment and i look forward to more,
peace
December 1, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Not knowing what you believe. You do seem to believe in God. However, you rebel against exactly what the God of the Bible stands for. Perhaps, you are misunderstanding the Biblical text by taking the text out of it’s original context. Which is to say, you are looking at the text from a modern point of view and not placing yourself in that day and time to see exactly what God was saying to the people living in that day and time. This is not to say that what was said is not relevant to today, but it is important to know.
Your thoughts.
December 1, 2008 at 6:29 pm
e have free will enough to chose to obey God or to not obey God. To accept Jesus Christ or to not accept Jesus Christ. Sure we have free will to the finite knowledge that we have. With God being all knowing, from everlasting to everlasting, He see’s things from a perspective that we cannot fathom. We are finite in knowlege and perspective and God is not. We cannot understand the mind of God.
God is so loving that he gives us the ability to chose, but he knows what we will chose before we actually do. He lets us make our mistakes even when he puts an open door or a way out right in front of our faces. It is up to us to make the Godly choices with the direction He gives us in his word. When we don’t then the consequences of our sins we face.
J9: that is your OPINION that you have free will. the bibles opinion and therefore God’s opinion is that you do not. he is the potter and you are the clay. “you can do nothing but for the father” jesus even stated he could do nothing but for the father. Jesus gave us a great example of how the disciples thought they could do what they wanted out of free will and yet jesus proved them wrong.
notice, i provided scriptures to backup what i stated. i provided the bibles opinion and you provide your opinion. what i provide is apparently the word of god.
you tell us that God sees thing from a perspective that we can not fathom….yet you can not prove this either. again, your opinion….nothing more.
god is so loving that he killed babies in a flood for the sin of men. you call that loving? would you kill your daughter if her mother sinned? drown them slowly in a pool? that is not good, no matter how you look at it. that is the problem with religion. it makes excuses for horrors that are never acceptable.
everyone will be saved in the end and the punishment is not torture for all or same punishment for all. according to the bible, the all consuming fire of god will cleans us all. did you not read….EVERY tongue shall confess” what happens when you confess jesus is lord? that is right, you are saved. it is rather clearly stated in the bible. you just want to believe what others taught you and don’t bother to read it. i read it and can quote much of it. i study it all the time. if you love this god so much, i would think you would do the same.
peace to you
December 1, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I did not see your last post there, so my assumption is incorrect. However, the evidence for God is all around us and within yourself. Look at the oder of things in the universe and in yourself. If there were no order to your body per say, you would not be able to function. Just the mere fact that you can think, write, type, walk, read, hear, taste with all the different mechanisms that make these processes happen, they are proof that there is a God that created you and all that there is.
December 1, 2008 at 6:35 pm
J9: please excuse my last post that had your text at the top without quotes. i intended to delete it and only used it for reference in reply. I used to be a christian, then i started to study the bible and the history of religion. i think if people actually did that, they would see the truth.
here are some basic questions: is “yet all of god” yes or no? If all is of God, then most of what i have stated can clearly be seen as true. no context needed. did god appoint a time for every event and every matter? no context needed. so many people like to claim it is out of context and then ignore that context is not needed for many claims. did god create ALL….yes or no…..no context needed. however, if you notice, i listed several scriptures that agree throughout the bible and therefore are very much in context.
i do not believe in god nor can i hate a god. therefore, i stand from a far more objective point of view than anyone that claims there is a god. those that claim there is a god also are told they will be tortured if they do not believe. i have an open mind and fear not torture and expect no reward. a far more objective point of view. so if you look at it in context, you can see that my point of view is far more open and objective.
you are required to believe and you can not refuse to believe….or else.
make sense?
peace
December 1, 2008 at 6:39 pm
if you say the evidence is there. then i guess it could be evidence of the muslim god? the hindu god? buddha? the fact is we have no evidence. it is again your opinion, it is what you believe..that is all. to say it is a fact is a lie. maybe you need to have this faith because it gives you the illusion of control or understanding. the FACT is that we do not know what started it all. we can provide evidence that the christian god is not real more than we can provide evidence he is real.
so i guess you are open to the muslim god being proven because of all that is around us? he must be real, that is proof, there are trees and people and complexity?
peace
December 1, 2008 at 6:53 pm
If you think logically through it then the evidence that suggests the order of things still provides proof that there is a God. Whether that God be the Christian God, Muslim god, or any other god. Once you get past that fact, then that is where the study of the different religions comes into play to answer the question, which religion is the true religion of the God that created all that there is? Sure, It is my opinion based on facts that the Bible provides that direct me to the Christian religion. If the Bible is true, then I am a sinner in need of a savior. If the Bible is true, then at savior was written about centuries before and those prophecies fulfilled through the life of Jesus Christ.
December 1, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Unfortunately, the main point of this has been lost through bickering. Neither of you is going to convince the other of whichever “truth” you happen to believe. The goal is to have our children be thoughtful and responsible consumers of information, the Bible included.
TrueLogic, I think you’re operating under the assumption that there is only one way to look at the Bible, and you’re debunking it rather well. However, sooooo many people don’t believe in absolutes. To say that the Bible is false is just as illogical as saying that the Bible is true. It’s a conglomeration of books, written by dozens of people over the course of a couple thousand years. In addition, those books selected to be in the Bible were selected by a council of men, who had to weed out the stuff they didn’t believe from the stuff they did. Is there truth to the Bible? YES. Are there things that should not be taken literally? YES. The Bible is not a single source. It can’t be all or nothing or else you run the risk of looking just as dumb as the people you criticize.
J9, just because we have no explanation for things does not prove the existence of God. You will never in a million years win a argument of logic with that argument. I happen to believe what you believe, but I’m not about to argue with someone who doesn’t believe using ideas and logic that don’t fall into his frame of mind. Sure, a believer will be right with you on these things, but how can either of you expect to win when neither of you are not even playing the same game with the same rules?
December 1, 2008 at 9:00 pm
If Jesus wasn’t God then, how did he know Peter was going to deny him three times before the rooster crowed? If Jesus knew that and since God is in control of all things at all times, then it would suggest that Jesus was God would it not?
December 1, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Truelogic:
I bounced over from the slavery discussion to here. I’m still not sure I follow the blogging ‘discussion’ process as well as I should, but maybe I’ll catch on some day. I used Scripture there and you didn’t reply to any of it. I didn’t use it here and you told J9 it should be used. I don’t get it…
Jason: Excellent point. There are really two completely different worldviews here. One believes in God – the other does not. Aristotle articulately stated the Law of Contradictions which certainly is at play here. I don’t agree with you on the historicity of Scripture and its assemblage, but I appreciate your thoughts. [For the record - I thought Jabez was misused greatly by many, many people!]
J9: Scripture eloquently states how God is “proven” through our natural world. From Psalms to Romans 1:20, we see the authors praising and proclaiming the Truth of God as revealed through our natural world. However, if one does not believe in or see it from that perspective, Jason is correct that this is a game being played with two separate sets of rules.
Back to my original reply above, I can see that being played out as well. I used the word “sin” but Truelogic throws out that word. Perhaps “mistake” would have been a better choice on neutral ground, but it’s the word I used.
I also used the word “ramifications.” I have taught my children the ramifications (consequences) of their actions effect them and others. Since you have cited Noah in postings, I do see that as a tragic consequence of sin. Yes, it pains me to think about it, but it likewise pains me to think of the ramifications of my sin on my children.
I find “predictability” to be a good thought to add to discussions of free will. I guess you don’t. Because God knows how we will act (as sinful people desiring what our hearts want), we are pathetically predictable. As a believer, I choose to follow the Truth I read in Scripture and TRY not to sin. (But yes, I still do…)
Thanks for the discussion. Guess I’ll move on and try to figure out a bit more how this all works…
December 1, 2008 at 10:16 pm
J9, if you think logically, you will say logically that you and i do NOT know how it all came to be. It could be created by an alien that we call god. it could have just happened and be a process that is always happening. FACT is that you do not know. You think you know. There is a big, big difference.
Now, if you want to believe in a god, then we can invent any god and create a new book to define that god. it is very easy to predict something to happen AFTER the fact. kind of silly.
Jesus is a copy of many Gods that came before him. others before him were said to be born to a virgin, visited by 3, followed by 12, died for man and rose from the dead and many, many other common stories that jesus happens, just happens to copy. give me a break.
how did peter know? really? because it is written in a bible or any book you claim he knew? that is your evidence? when did they write these books? AFTER the fact.
can i quote some parts from Darwin’s book and then draw a conclusion that it must be true and fact? oh no, christians don’t want others to do what they do with the bible.
open your mind and read.
if the bible is the word of God then we have many, many other problems.
not only did your version of God flood the earth and kill BABIES for the sin of others and you call him moral, but he watches as a child is molested and does nothing. he is actually the cause of that evil taking place and he appointed a time for every event like that to take place. he planned ALL from the beginning.
so, if your God were real, he would be one of the least favorites to follow. Buddha would move to the top of the list for his love and moral standing….not the christian god.
or course, i don’t believe in Buddha either.
December 1, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Hey Jason, thanks for your comments again. I do agree with most of what you have stated. I may speak of truth but I am not attempting to get anyone to believe my form of truth. I also do not make threats if they don’t believe my form of truth. I just provide some scriptures that in my opinion clearly say something much different than what the Christians tell others. I plan to provide another post on hell, eternal and eternity as what is taught is much, much different. People do not want to take time to use reference books on hebrew or greek or other bibles/history to understand what is being stated in the bible. Additionally, many base their belief on the KJV of the bible and it is so full of errors that I can understand why so many are confused.
You are clearly an intelligent person and your thoughts are welcome and appreciated. I truly use the opinions of others to help me gain more understanding on the subject and issues in general.
peace
December 1, 2008 at 10:41 pm
layrenewal: again, thanks for your comments.
I do not mind if you don’t follow the blogging discussion and appreciate your input as it comes.
I apologize if I didn’t see the scriptures you used. I will need to go back and check those scriptures. I do not intentionally ignore what you state or the scriptures.
There are more than two world views and the Christians have over 300 denominations (views) of their form of god alone.
Just because the bible stated God is revealed through our natural world doesn’t mean it is so. If the muslim bible or some other bible makes a statement, is it true? The problem with those that believe in a book as a guide to understand their God is they happen to believe the book they are taught to believe in. If i taught you from the book of Darwin from birth, you would likely believe it. Conditioning or brainwashing comes to mind.
Also, like the book of revelations, you must understand that many parts of the bible are symbolic.
I have not problem with using the word sin, or mistake, or breaking the law or whatever you want to call it. I do know that the bible stated that those how sin “are of the devil”. As every Christian will admit, they sin. Therefore, are they of the devil? Of course most of them will deny it. My point is that the bible states many things that Christians are happy to deny or claim are out of context yet other things they want to claim as true. Either it is all valid or it is not.
I believe you are just making excuses for the Noah story. Fact is that this God you say is moral, DROWNED babies…a slow, torturous death and this included the murder of the unborn child in the womb of the mother. Additionally, like i stated, if hitler gave his life to jesus before he died then he is in heaven and saved and a child that decided to do nothing more than NOT believe….is tortured by your god of love, mercy and compassion with all his morals? come on…really. that is just, that is righteous? Now, if you learn to read the book of revelations, you will see a much different story unfold. This God actually uses his all consuming fire to burn away or purify his child so they can stand before him. would you, if you had the power, burn away your childs sin so they can live with you forever or would you torture then with fire for eternity? The christian version loves the torture story but I can prove to you it is FALSE and this God of the bible is truly a god of love. I can say, if my child sinned or just didn’t believe in me, if i was all powerful, i would erase his “sin” and ensure he was living with me for eternity. Especially since God planned all things to happen according to HIS will. He appointed a time for everything to happen. that is scripture. You did not plan your life, you didn’t appoint the time for you to do something or the time you will die. According to the bible, it is ALL according to God or “before ordained” by god.
you may not like it, but this is the word of the bible and you need to speak to your god if you don’t like how he presented his word. not my fault.
i can say I have nothing that needs to be forgiven. i have not harmed anyone, i don’t break laws, i don’t drink or smoke and I gave up 5 years of my life to help others…gave up everything but a few personal items. Yet because I happen to not believe in god, i will be tortured for eternity? give me a break. I have far more love in me to know I would never cause such harm to anyone, especially my own child.
God knows how we will act, according to the bible. If he is all powerful he knows exactly what each of us will do because he created us to do exactly what we do. again, you don’t see the full message of the bible and therefore you can’t see the full extent of the true beauty that is there for you.
If you still sin, then why? You can decide to NOT sin if you have free will. It is up to you. The least you could do is not sin since Jesus supposedly suffered terribly and died for you. What sin is so hard to stop? really?
I hope you will stick around as you do cause me to think. I will check to see what scriptures i missed that you provided. I will comment if i find them.
peace to you
December 1, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Layrenewal: in case you didn’t see my comment on the other post I will make it clear here. I didn’t intend to call you a name and not sure what name I would have called you. If I did, I apologize. Additionally, I have not hate towards you or anyone. I do not hate God, as I cannot hate something I do not believe in. You words do not hit any nerves with me. I am a little above letting words harm me. We learned that as kids, at least i did “sticks and stones”? I can’t imagine being so emotional that words stated by others towards me would cause me any harm…that would be silly. Words are more like food in my opinion. You can feel free to insult me by insulting my mother or father or anyone you care…..i know you wouldn’t but if you did, it wouldn’t harm me….it CAN NOT harm me in any way.
Peace
December 2, 2008 at 3:37 am
Your name is quite funny since logic seems to evade your efforts to apply it. Did you choose it as a satire?
You used your free will to expose your antitheist mindset.
I won’t argue details, because you have taken the untenable stance on an issue that is old, tired and long ago settled. to be brief. You have free willl to go along with God’s plan or to reject it.
You reject it, so you can’t see how it works, that is the price you pay to assert your independence from reality.
December 2, 2008 at 3:47 am
The fact is that you are afraid of the truth so you CAN NOT argue details. I provided the details of Scripture. If God planned it, appointed a time for it to happen, operates (controls the function) all in all, you are the clay, man’s steps are not of himself, even if evil happens God has done it….not much free will in any of that unless you just choose to ignore the word of your god. of course, i have free will because i know that your God is not real. just like all the other Gods. yet you believe your god is real like all the other people that believe their god is real and you can NOT disprove their God’s just like they can not disprove your God.
I reject it so clearly i see how it works, it is not all according to God’s will but instead, there is no god and i do things according to my will.
reality? yeah, a snake talked, man lives in the belly of a whale, a boy was born to a virgin (like 16 god’s before him), the earth was flooded and two of every animal put into a boat, a man flew to the mountain tops with the ultimate power of evil and then rose up bodily to the heavens…..give me a break. you have lost grasp with reality long ago. ALL of those claims are yet again an example of things you have NOT a shred of evidence to BACK UP!
although i may not believe in your version of God or any of the version, at least i know what the bible is teaching and you have only just followed the lie told to you from birth, like all the others.
peace
December 2, 2008 at 4:38 pm
I find that the scriptures are very clear on many issues that I have posted about. Evil, being saved, free will and the book of revelation. i recently had someone tell me that only the church is allowed to interpret the bible. yeah, i do see a problem with that kind of blind obedience which also lead many to drink coolaide. dont’ ask questions and believe what you are told. wow.
December 2, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Truelogic:
I decided to come back today to see if you had posted a reply. I’ve read those replies on the two postings.
Let me first say I don’t have a problem following your train of thought. I’m trying to get used to how blogs work (post, reply, wait or check back for a reply, etc.). It’s not exactly the same as face-to-face communication and words can be easily misinterpreted.
Since my Christian worldview uses Scripture as its foundation, I therefore need to process my communication accordingly. I find words very powerful. In my reply to the other post on slavery, you used the words “sick and vile” in relationship to my reply. While you may not have called me that personally, in attaching it to my naively posted reply asking for your thoughts on other verses related to slavery, it was in effect applied to me and my faith.
You may disagree with that, but it is nevertheless the way that I received your response. Perhaps I am to blame for the words I used in asking for your specific thoughts. I don’t know…
You stated above that “words are like food.” To use that simile, “food” can be helpful or harmful. If I am going to speak with someone and discuss an issue, I find it helpful to follow a logical train of thought. We keep coming back to the same roundabout issues from which no one will “win” an argument. I don’t want to “win” but I do like to discuss things as I believe it helps me grow.
And – to address a couple of other points – I was not raised in a Christian home. I came to faith later in life. I’ve studied Greek to learn more about reading the original language. While I have not studied Hebrew (too lazy I confess!), I use software to look up literal word meanings. From living in Central America two decades ago to the current ministry I serve, I simply want to live out my faith. I’m not a theologian by any means nor do I aspire to be one.
To finish this lengthy missive – I wish (pray) you wisdom and guidance as you continue your journey. May you find ways to express who you are and what you believe in love.
And, if I may be so audacious, may your continued searching of Scripture enrich your mind and heart. I hope others will be able to communicate with you more fully.
December 2, 2008 at 10:35 pm
layrenewal, thanks for your comments again. if you apply what i say to you or your faith then it is you that chooses to do it. you can blame me if you like. here is what it means. I think it is vile and sick to support anyone that accepts slavery as being ok. that is all. God apparently approved of it and how we can beat our slaves as long as we dont’ kill them. i call that sick and vile. don’t you? beating or torturing anyone is sick and vile…even if God does it. And based on scripture, God did it and promises to do more (according to christians). however, the christian hell is a lie and if you look at the egyptian pagan religion, you will notice just where the Christians got their hell. seems adam and eve never heard of hell. seems it just popped into the bible much later. did you notice that?
i realize that my words are not polished and i take no time to edit or review my comments. as you can see form my post, i can write clearly if i want. most of the time, i think you or others will get my point. i realize it can come across as harsh and not caring but you can choose to take it that way or read it for what it actually is. i will try to improve so not to confuse others.
it is funny that you wish and pray me wisdom. yet i can post numerous emails i have received from people regarding some of my posts like the ones i have here that tell me i am very wise. again, you likely feel you are correct. you must be wiser than i to pray for me to have wisdom. how do you know that God didn’t give me the wisdom and you are to listen to me? how do you know you are not being deceived by satan or even God as scripture tells us god does send lying spirits to deceive. who would you be to question what he does?
i believe you have communicated with me rather well. however, i only provide you with some scripture to make my point. the scriptures i supplied in my posts are very clear. you can either believe the word of God or not. i would say it is your choice but according to the bible, it isn’t.
personally, i do not care about winning. there is nothing to win. either you believe the word of God or you don’t. I don’t believe in god but i can provide scripture that completely goes against the words preached by christians.
there is another religious person on one of my posts telling me that i or others are not authorized to interpret scriptures…only the church. so you see, they have yet another belief that is different than you or i. they think their way is the right way. you think your way is the right way.
these are simple concepts but none of you get it. you can’t all be right and yet all of you claim to be right. every religion, claims to be right. that should throw up a red flag to anyone.
December 3, 2008 at 3:03 pm
truelogic:
Please understand – I’m not questioning your intelligence. I did not intend to imply that because we have different beliefs you are not smart.
Part of “wisdom” includes attitude. It was (is) my prayer that as you continue to seek learning (wisdom and guidance), you would find ways to express that in love rather than lowering yourself to present a bitter and angry “face” to your reader. I hope if you reread my comment above you will view it in that positive light.
I pray for wisdom for myself as well. I seek to understand God, myself and others. If you think I was praying wisdom for you in a derogatory way, it was misunderstood.
It is my opinion that discussions that are reduced to name calling (vile and sick) or questioning the intelligence of the other person are not beneficial to anyone. If you don’t think you are doing this, I would seek to gently disagree. Even the last paragraph uses the phrasing “simple concepts but none of you get it.” Do you think that is a beneficial way to express yourself?
Yes, there are many different religions. Yes, they cannot all be right. (Law of Contradictions) That is the precise reason I like to have discussions about religion, faith and the application of both.
It is also why I like to study the Scriptures in context and understanding the culture of the time. While reading 2nd Corinthians chapter 10 last night (a letter written DIRECTLY to the church in Corinth), there is a subtext to many of Paul’s comments. People were saying things about him and his ministry and Paul replied accordingly. However, there are principles we can take from that passage and apply them to ourselves today. For example, I should be the same in person as I am in my writing.
If some say the “Catholic” church has the sole ability to interpret Scripture, that is their opinion. Obviously, by taking the preceding paragraph as an example, I don’t agree. Examples from Exodus 19 through 2 Peter are abundantly clear that we are called to be God’s servants (“the priesthood”) on earth. The rabbinical traditions call for us to follow our teachers closely to understand what they are saying. We can learn much from others if we talk.
Bottom line – I do NOT doubt that you have a very strong heart and love for others. Your mentioning your mother and sister previously as examples is an affirmation of this character trait. In praying for you, I simply wish for you to be able to express that clearly in your communication rather then coming across as hostile.
December 3, 2008 at 8:16 pm
layrenewal: thanks again for your comments. I didn’t think you were questioning my intelligence. I am not that intelligent anyway.
I believe we all express ourselves in our own way and we should be ourselves. if my words sound bitter or angry, it is only my style and not a reflection on the same me. I do not mind if people think it is…it is their choice. I do view your comments in a positive light and like i stated, most words are like food to me. anything you right, positive or negative, actually turns our to be all good to me. that is my nature.
Yes, of course there are times when i may misunderstand you or others. that is the problem with the written word and personal interpretation….just part of life and nothing for me or anyone to be upset about. it is all information and all good for me.
you may not like some of the words i use. however, that is me. in my mind, i am free to use any words to express myself or to get others to express their true self. it is called freedom of speech. I would never tell you that you should write another way as that is your freedom. many men and women died to give us these freedoms. I use my freedoms. You may not like the words sick or vile but they are the words for which I was given every right to use. I may not like the style of yoru writing or how it appears but i would NEVER tell you that you should learn to write another way. You have very right to speak as you wish and even call me names. Use the language or not, i use it.
fact is, some things are very simple concepts. if i teach my child about doing things and they do not understand something, i am not going to tell them, oh…it is very hard to understand when it is NOT hard to understand. i will tell them it is a simple concept and expect them to THINK about it and maybe try to understand why i feel it is simple. i will in turn attempt to look from their perspective and see why it is so hard for them and try to help them see it. I try to do that in my writing as well. Thus, my first 4 posts about the bible scripture.
people keep saying CONTEXT. read my posts, tell me how it is out of context. either “yet all is of God” like he apparently stated or it is NOT. then look at all of the scriptures i posted from throughout the bible and notice how they AGREE to each other. Additionally, many people do not know how to read the bible as most of the words of jesus are in parables. there are some simple rules to follow in order to understand them. MOST all religious types don’t even have a clue about these rules to follow. I have taught of them in other posts on other blogs but decided if they are really interested in their God, they should figure it out. just like the book of revelation that is SYMBOLIC. most religious types can not accept it. they have been falsely taught of the hell fire and second death as Literal. silly.
do you need a book or a bible to tell you that you should be the same in person as in writing? is that not common sense. don’t take offense, but it is common sense. but, there are some advantages of being different. it all depends on what you want to get out of it or what you want to give. life is not ON and OFF.
of course the church is not called by god to interpret the bible. scripture actually makes it clear. as with other topics, i could supply those facts from scripture. however, it is not an important topic in my opinion. the lie of the trinity would be something worth writing about. or the lie of hell. as these are things most kids are not taught. however, most kids and others already understand how silly it is to put your faith into another man or establishment to interpret how the bible reads. silly..again.
the bible makes it clear “whatever you ask in the name of jesus will be given onto you” you need only the faith the size of a mustard seed.
I would prefer you pray for all the children I can not help. those that will likely die tonight for lack of shelter or food or medication. pray for all of them. everyone of them. notice, your prayer will NOT be answered. i find pray a good excuse for many people to feel good about themselves having “done” something for others. i find it far better for us to get off our butts and giveup some of our lives to help others. i believe prayer is for the lazy or those that just don’t really care enough to do something about it.
December 3, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Dude,
Your blog is all the proof I need to know that man has free will. Your “logic” is so flawed that only you could have come up with it. Don’t blame God for your mess!
December 3, 2008 at 11:26 pm
tonydye, thanks for your comment.
how does my blog prove there is free will? How is the logic flawed? It is easy to make statements or excuses but another thing to back them up. Notice, my comments about free will have been backed up with Scripture. You just made a couple of statements and didn’t bother to back them up.
Also, you should realize that of course we have free will. I am not saying we don’t have free will. I am saying “according to the bible” we don’t have free will. Try to read it before you make silly comments.
peace
December 7, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Hi, Chris. Sorry. I can’t be arsed to read all the comments fully. Too much to do right now.
You know what would be interesting? Would you consider doing a post that defines Free Will? I agree with your statement that free will is not Biblical, but probably for different reasons. In any case, it might be cool to see your research from other philosophical (not only Christian) perspectives.
Also – unrelated to that – I might offer that your 2 Corinthians quote might be off a bit: The Greek says, “ta de panta ek tou theou” which could mean “all these [things]” (referring to the context leading up to the line in question “are from [or "of"] God…” There are some issues with some of the other Greek claims on your page, but on many levels, it doesn’t really matter. Just thought I’d mention it.
December 7, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Robaigh, thanks for your comments. I have provided a small post on free will, one on all will be saved, one exposing some truth of the book of revelation, and how even evil is of god. There is much more to provide on all subjects and even examples for things like evil being of god and done by god and of course the “free will” of men.
I do use reference books for greek and hebrew and actually have some friends that have a rather strong understanding of hebrew. Geek, i have to rely on only reference documentation. I often use strongs. I am not sure any of us can always say exactly what is the proper translation as there are just too many version and many that are likely never to be found as they were likely destroyed through time. however, if you were to read the 4 posts i have mentioned above..evil, revleation, saved and free will, you will notice how they all agree with each other. in the end, we are all saved because everything is of god, planned to happen as god planned. anyway, that is how i see it but i am not religious. over 300 denominations of christians all see it a little differently and don’t agree on translations. so i try to take the big picture.
peace
December 8, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Thanks, I’ll take a gander.
R.
December 9, 2008 at 9:12 am
i am working on a couple more posts. one on the trinity, which i covered a little in the past but not sure if it is still an active post. another about the historical and scriptural proof of the lie of heal, the use of the word eternity and eternal and the use of the word hell. there are some more major translation issues…MAJOR. we even have some admissions from the catholic church as well. shocking..haha
December 12, 2008 at 10:32 am
Bible was written by men. Quran was not. Bible has been altered over the centuries. Quran has remained pure since God revealed it to prophet Mohammed in 610 AD. It is no surprise that that Bible is against science while Quran is not.
December 12, 2008 at 7:11 pm
the bible, the quran and any other books were written by men. can you prove it was written by god? NO…so again, stop lying. Prove God revealed anything to the prophet mohammed…you can’t. again, another lie.
December 19, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Props on the very interesting topic. I ended up deciding that everything does happen with reason, and is of God (gods? The Universe?). I am open to the idea, however, that everything happens for no reason in particular, and the reason(s) are incidental, yet no less meaningful.
You do make a very good point in showing what a confusing mess and contradiction of ideas the Bible seems to be. I’m wondering, why are you so familiar with the Bible? Were you formerly religious? Or is it a “know thine enemy” deal?
December 19, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I am partly familiar with the bible as I was a Christian and even attended Christian school. However, most of my actual “knowledge” of the bible came after I realized it was all just another lie. Then I became very interested in how it all came to be and why we make so many claims. I never claim that I have the answer as it would be rather silly if I actually thought I understood it all. I only provide yet one more opinion in the pool of billions of opinion. It is just my form of logic applied to what Christians love to tell others. I just leave out the threats of torture by fire for eternity…which is also a lie and a direct copy of the egyptian hell that came long before the Christian hell.
I do not have anyone that I would call an enemy. It is very possible others may consider me an enemy but again, I couldn’t care less. If they don’t like what I post or think, then it is their problem. They don’t have to read any of it.
peace
December 20, 2008 at 3:35 am
I was a Christian at one time with great devotion to the word and “god”. I started to memorize the red lettered text of the bible and after I had that memorized, I started with the new testament but never finished memorizing it. crazy…isn’t it? I actually had large bits of that sucker memorized. in college, i started to learn about early civilizations and more specifically, religions. my eyes were opened! So, instead of memorizing scripture, i studied it and used a few of the well known and used reference materials for greek and hebrew translations. There are many interesting facts that, like you stated, demonstrate “what a confusing mess and contradiction of ideas”. It is all about men, manipulating men. however, there are some that actually believe what they are doing. Just like the german soldier believed that he was doing god’s work by killing jews. pretty stupid but they believed it.
December 23, 2008 at 7:46 am
There is no way I can prove to a person who does not accept God, that there is book from God. Come on. Use your head. Its impossible.
A person can only believe in a Divine Book, if he first accepts the Divine.
December 23, 2008 at 8:22 am
There is NO way I can prove to you that my Dog is divine and sent from the universe God if you just don’t accept it. Come on, you don’t seem to understand how stupid those comments are. Of course you can not prove it because there is no God or book written by a God. You can’t disprove that my Dog was sent by a divine being to save the world. You can only believe in my divine dog if you first accept the divine being that sent him. Just believe me. The Jews say their God is real, the Hindu’s theirs, the buddhist say their version is real. Prove that their stories are NOT true! YOU CAN NOT. Come on, don’t be stupid.
December 27, 2008 at 11:08 am
If God is the author of both good and evil as you claim, then you also agree that He created you. So in your logic you also should agree that He is capable of ridiculing and blaspheming Himself through the lips of mankind which you allege that He controls. Do you really think an infinitely powerful and wise God would be guilty of such practices. It is absurdity.
By this we know that we have interpreted the scriptures incorrectly, because we end up with nonsense.
God created all things including lucifer the light bearer who was once one of the most powerful angel in heaven. But lucifer transgressed God’s law and fell into sin by His own free will and doing. He became satan, the author of all evil in the world. And from that point onwards the battle between Good and Evil was born.
1Jn 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, that30 you have known him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young people, that31 you have conquered the evil one [satan].32
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God,50 and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one [satan].
God has allowed mankind to choose between Good and Evil and has tolerated and permitted Satan to do evil in the world so that His love for the world may be demonstrated through Christ Jesus.
Even though God created Satan, he did not cause Satan to transgress His law, neither did He cause Adam and Eve to transgress His commandments. Remember who the tempter was in the Garden of Eden. You claim in your arguments that it was God. But scripture said it was Satan.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil,15 and he himself tempts no one.
There is a danger in pulling select text out of context. It makes it impossible to reconcile with other scripture, especially if it is interpreted incorrectly.
For example,
Psa 81:11 But my people did not obey me;18
Israel did not submit to me.19
Psa 81:12 I gave them over to their stubborn desires;20
they did what seemed right to them.21
Psa 81:13 If only my people would obey me!22
If only Israel would keep my commands!23
or
Jdg 17:6 In those days Israel had no king. Each man did what he considered to be right.14
or
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, “Now64 that the man has become like one of us,65 knowing66 good and evil, he must not be allowed67 to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
or
Gen 2:17 but51 you must not eat52 from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when53 you eat from it you will surely die.”54
or
Gen 6:5 But the LORD saw18 that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination19 of the thoughts20 of their minds21 was only evil22 all the time.23
or
Num 14:27 “How long must I bear44 with this evil congregation45 that murmurs against me? I have heard the complaints of the Israelites that they murmured against me.
[Does God murmur against Himself???]
or
Num 14:35 I, the LORD, have said, “I will surely do so to all this evil congregation that has gathered together against me. In this wilderness they will be finished, and there they will die!” ‘ ”
[Does God war against Himself???]
or
2Ch 6:37 When your people67 come to their senses68 in the land where they are held prisoner, they will repent and beg for your mercy in the land of their imprisonment, admitting, ‘We have sinned and gone astray69, we have done evil!’
or
2Ch 12:14 He did evil because he was not determined to follow the LORD.17
or
Neh 9:35 Even when they were in their kingdom and benefiting from your incredible45 goodness that you had lavished46 on them in the spacious and fertile land you had set47 before them, they did not serve you, nor did they turn from their evil practices.
or
Job 1:1 There was a man3 in the land of Uz4 whose5 name was Job.6 And that man was pure7 and upright,8 one who feared God and turned away from evil.9
or
Job 34:10 “Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding.19 Far be it from20 God to do wickedness,
from the Almighty to do evil.
[Here it says God cannot be the author of evil]
or
Psa 5:4 Certainly10 you are not a God who approves of evil;11 evil people12 cannot dwell with you.13
or
Psa 10:15 Break the arm44 of the wicked and evil man!
Hold him accountable for his wicked deeds,45
which he thought you would not discover.46
[How can man be held accountable unless mankind has free will?]
or
Psa 14:1 Fools say to themselves,2 “There is no God.”3
They sin and commit evil deeds;4
none of them does what is right.5
or
Psa 35:12 They repay me evil for the good I have done;22
I am overwhelmed with sorrow.23
[You claim God must be the author of both good and evil. Does God have a split personality?? Does He inflict sorrow on Himself?]
or
Psa 36:1 An evil man is rebellious to the core.3
He does not fear God,4
or
Psa 37:12 Evil men plot against the godly21
and viciously attack them.22
[Again, does God attack Himself?]
or
Psa 37:28 For the LORD promotes53 justice,
and never abandons54 his faithful followers.
They are permanently secure,55
but the children56 of evil men are wiped out.57
[How can God be both just and the author of evil? That does not compute]
or
Psa 37:32 Evil men set an ambush for the godly
and try to kill them.6
[Is it logical that God fights against himself]
or
Psa 38:20 They repay me evil for the good I have done;
though I have tried to do good to them, they hurl accusations at me.33
Mat 5:45 so that you may be like54 your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
[These scripture seems to speak directly to you]
or
Psa 45:7 You love21 justice and hate evil.22
For this reason God, your God23 has anointed you24
with the oil of joy,25 elevating you above your companions.26
[Here it says God loves justice and hates evil. That makes Him a just and evil hating God. Therefore this scripture attests that God cannot be the author of evil]
or
Psa 51:4 Against you — you above all10 — I have sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
So11 you are just when you confront me;12
you are right when you condemn me.13
[sounds like free will to me]
or
Ecc 7:29 This alone have I discovered: God made humankind upright, but they have sought many evil schemes.
[sounds like free will]
or
Ecc 12:14 For God will evaluate every deed,43
including every secret thing, whether good or evil.
[sounds like accountability, and where there is accountability there is free will]
or
Isa 13:11 24 I will punish the world for its evil,25
and wicked people for their sin.
I will put an end to the pride of the insolent,
I will bring down the arrogance of tyrants.26
[notice it says God will punish them for THEIR sins]
or
Isa 59:15 Honesty has disappeared;
the one who tries to avoid evil is robbed.
The LORD watches and is displeased,31
for there is no justice.
or
Isa 65:12 I predestine you to die by the sword,28
all of you will kneel down at the slaughtering block,29
because I called to you, and you did not respond,
I spoke and you did not listen.
You did evil before me;30
you chose to do what displeases me.”
[here is your answer regarding predestination]
or
Jer 11:17 For though I, the LORD who rules over all,44 planted you in the land,45 I now decree that disaster will come on you46 because the nations of Israel and Judah have done evil and have made me angry by offering sacrifices to the god Baal.”47
[here God confirms His sovereignty over all. It simply means he has the ultimate veto power in the end. Just because He is sovereign(has the last say) does not mean it is incompatible with the existence of free will]
or
Jer 13:23 But there is little hope for you ever doing good,
you who are so accustomed to doing evil.
Can an Ethiopian65 change the color of his skin?
Can a leopard remove its spots?66
[here most people would say God made me like this. But notice why it is impossible to change, because of their habitual sinning and acceptance of it as normal.]
or
Eze 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior16 and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds!17 Why should you die, O house of Israel?’
[here we have a paradox. How can a sovereign God ask for His creation to turn away from its evil deeds. Only answer, free will]
or
Hab 1:13 You are too just42 to tolerate43 evil;
you are unable to condone44 wrongdoing.
So why do you put up with such treacherous people?45 Why do you say nothing when the wicked devour46 those more righteous than they are?47
[Here it says God is unable to condone wrongdoing (aka evil) and that He is too just to tolerate it. So tell me how can God be the author of evil?]
or
Zec 1:4 “Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the former prophets called out, saying, ‘The LORD who rules over all says, “Turn now from your evil wickedness,” ‘ but they would by no means obey me,” says the LORD.
[sounds like free will to me]
or
Mal 2:17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. But you say, “How have we wearied him?” Because you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the Lord’s opinion,26 and he delights in them,” or “Where is the God of justice?”
[I believe this passages addresses some of your previous questions]
or
1Pe 1:14 Like obedient children, do not comply with32 the evil urges you used to follow in your ignorance,
or
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment,1 and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.
Rom 13:2 So the person who resists such authority2 resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment
Rom 13:3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation,
Rom 13:4 for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God’s servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer.
Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities3 but also because of your conscience.4
[actually scripture says that all human authority and law was instituted by God to punish the evil doer. So when a murderer murders He in essence is subjected to God's law and is punished accordingly]
Conclusion:
1Co 2:14 The unbeliever9 does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
One of the things this verse is basically suggesting is that unless you have the Spirit of God in you, you will never be able to appreciate or understand God’s word correctly because God’s word is spiritual and can only be discerned by spiritual people.
December 27, 2008 at 8:16 pm
You have much to learn, grasshopper. First, you need to read. If you have read my post regarding evil being of God, then you would have noticed that I said several times, “according to the bible”. Therefore, it is not according to me or what I believe. Therefore, If i say evil is of god and that is according to the bible, there doesn’t mean I agree he created me. If you can not get that very simple concept, I can see why you were not able to disprove any of what I stated. But you did pull our your “select” pieces of scripture. Just like you accuse me of doing. Ironic, isn’t it? Therefore, you have not made any point about any of this being “nonsense”. Of course if you believe in one of the many Gods, that is nonsense. Unless you have proof that your specific version is real and he is like YOU say he is. I only provided lots of scriptures to prove to you that NOTHING is of man but ALL is of God. Now that is pure scripture. Do you think everything is NOT of the will of God? Apparently, you deny your god his own will because God said it is all according to his will. Anyway, I provided more than enough scripture to prove it. Additionally, I can promise you that I have won more souls to the truth about the lies of the bible than you have or could win to your version of God….whatever version or denomination you believe it may be.
You are like many religious people and like to say Lucifer or Satan was created by God but he transgressed of his own desire or will. However, scripture, AGAIN doesn’t agree with you grasshopper.
It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN — he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner “FROM THE BEGINNING”! Do you not read the bible?
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN — they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the “image of God,” and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
“And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL…” (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing “good and evil” is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly “know” both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the “TREE of the knowledge of good and evil,” which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this “knowledge.” NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
I see you are starting to learn. Keep with me! Unless you are afraid of the truth.
God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! “Declaring the end from the beginning…” (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are “accountable” for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes “responsibility” for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you” (I Pet. 1:19-20).
WOW…..Did you catch that grasshopper? Seems God planned even that from the beginning. Therefore, he had to intend for Adam and Eve to Sin. Amazing what scripture reviles to the chosen few. Remember, I am the few and you are the many fools that believe what you are told by the church and mommy and daddy.
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD” (Rev. 13:8).
Is you (like most all religious types) so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.
Only ignorant and foolish people would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: “And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat” (Gen. 3:6).
Did you notice that last phrase “…and did eat”? It was not the “eating” of the fruit that made her a sinner — she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she “did eat.”
You have much to learn. Notice, NONE of your scriptures contradicted what I have stated. NOT ONE. If they did contradict, then you would be charged with causing God’s word to contradict and the punishment is apparently rather harsh.
You may want to tell God this statement from his word is not true and you may want to deny it, but it is FACT from SCRIPTURE:
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS” (Isaiah 45:6-7).
Wow, did you catch that grasshopper? Seems you are not wise enough to grasp the stones.
is a LIAR, and the FATHER of lies and he has ALWAYS been that way since his CREATION (John 8:44). Satan was NOT “Lucifer” (a supposed perfect archangel) from the beginning; Satan was “Satan” from the beginning. Satan is an EVIL creature. He has been an evil creature from his very creation. Satan is not the result of a Godly experiment gone wrong! Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God’s adversary. Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place.
Let me help you see this FACT of Scripture:
You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do… He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it” (John 8:44).
“Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE…” (Gen. 3:1) God “made” this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was “the SERPENT” that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).
“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Gen. 3:15).
This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve’s seed (singular seed — Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, “thy seed.” Jesus said, “You are of your father the Devil…?” (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has “seed”; he is a “father”: a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not “eat dust” but Satan dines on mankind “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:8). And he seeks to devour mankind who are “dust” of the earth (“…for dust thou art….” Gen. 3:19).
“By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT” (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His “hand” — at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called “the crooked serpent.” This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated “crooked” anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means “a fugitive,” Strong’s #1281. And “fugitive” is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: “to [go] up and down,” and “to and fro,” and to “sift.” Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:
(A) “And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, ‘From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it” (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).
It is the “crooked [fugitive] SERPENT” SATAN who goes “TO AND FRO” and “UP AND DOWN” in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.
(B) “And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat” (Luke 22:31).
It is the “crooked [fugitive] SERPENT” SATAN who “SIFTS” men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.
Do you wonder why I am able to show the truth to hundreds of Teens each year? Now, a certain percentage of those teens continue to help me spread the word along with many pamphlets I leave in christian book stores, larger book stores (nicely hidden in christian books) and I love to leave them in coffee shops….seems to get my greatest replies from coffee shops.
“Behold, I have created the smith [that’s me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY” (Isaiah 54:16).
["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].
God created the “WASTER,” not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created “The WASTER” and He created him “TO DESTROY” Now then, WHO’S role is it to “destroy” the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?
“In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (I Cor. 5:4-5).
It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be “the WASTER to DESTROY” men’s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn’t finished YET!
Do you need more proof that I am yet correct again? I am happy to keep going. Try to learn what I have taught you and then I will give you more food to grow. You can thank me later.
Peace
December 27, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Psa 14:3 Everyone rejects God;10
they are all morally corrupt.11
None of them does what is right,12
not even one!
[everyone rejects God; none do what is right]
Rom 3:10 just as it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one,
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands,
there is no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away,
together they have become worthless;
there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.”15
Rom 3:13 “Their throats are open graves,16
they deceive with their tongues,
the poison of asps is under their lips.”17
Rom 3:14 “Their mouths are18 full of cursing and bitterness.”19
Rom 3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Rom 3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.”20
Rom 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”21
[there is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who seeks God on their own]
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,
This is why scripture says that no one can come to me [Jesus] unless the Father who sent me draws him, because all have turned from God, none seek him by their own free will. So He needs to intervene and reveal Himself to the lost world.
December 27, 2008 at 8:24 pm
You can make up anything you like. I really don’t care. Everything that happens was Planned from the beginning. Every sin you commit and the exact day you would give your heart to Jesus and the day you will die. It is all “before ordained”. Really, read your bible. Of course I do not believe in God and therefore none of this matters to me with that respect. However, you should stop lying to kids and others by telling them your lies. Tell it like it is and as it is stated. You are welcome to your opinion but that is all you are giving. Unless God himself gave YOU the special person all the truth and the rest of us low people are not worthy of your gift..haha. yeah, right.
In the end, ALL will be saved as “every tongue shall confess jesus christ is lord”. did you get that, EVERY tongue? Why is this? of course, the bible makes it clear that it would not be just if God that causes ALL actually punished you for what he causes. “yet all is of God”.
Let me help show you that yes, even evil is of God.
the word translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for “calamity” is the Hebrew word ade which means “misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means “bad or evil.” It is the same word used for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil [ra].” It was not the tree of the knowledge of “good and calamity.” Did Jacob really mean to say,“a calamitous beast” had devoured his son?(Gen. 37:33)? Did Israel really “do calamity in the sight of God” by worshipping Balaam, or did they do evil?(Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means “bad or evil” and it is used over four hundred times to represent bad or evil, not calamity.
Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of “calamity” and not “evil.” Of the nineteen times that the word “calamity” appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.
“I create EVIL” (Isa. 45:7)
Out of God’s mouth “proceeds…EVIL” (Lam. 3:38).
“…an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man…” (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Liter Old Testament).
“…I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee…” (II Sam. 12:11).
“…has not the Potter [God] the right… to make… one [vessel] for DISHONOR?” (Rom. 9:19-25).
“I [God] created the waster to DESTROY” (Isa. 54:16).
“The Lord has made…the WICKED for the day of EVIL” (Prov. 16:4).
“…I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6).
“…Hear, O earth: behold, I [God] will bring EVIL upon this people…” (Jer. 6:19).
God told a “lying spirit” to “…go forth, and do so [lie]” (I Kings 22:22).
“He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people…” (Psalm 105:25).
“Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you…” (Jer. 18:11).
“For God locks up all together in STUBBORNNESS [that’s an evil]…” (Rom. 11:32).
“O Lord, why have You MADE us TO ERR from your ways…” (Isa. 63:17).
“…so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS…” (Josh. 23:15).
“…shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?” (Amos 3:6).
“Yet He [God] is SCOURGING [severely beating] every son to whom He is receiving” (Heb. 12:5).
“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive EVIL” (Job 2:10).
“Thus saith the Lord of hosts… go and SMITE Amalek… DESTROY… SLAY both man and woman, infant and suckling…” (I Sam. 15:2-3).
“…God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE” (II Thes. 2:11).
Do not forget God also stated:
“God is operating ALL in all” (I Cor. 12:6)
“Yet ALL is of God” (II Cor. 5:18)
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18)
NOTICE: ALL would include EVIL and ALL things would include EVIL
Examples of evil:
Outside of murder by drowning of babies and infants in God’s mass flood. We have religious types telling us God will Torture billions with FIRE for Eternity.
In my Opinion, Torture and Murder are Evil. NOT MORAL
Examples:
Isaiah 13:16 ;Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18;Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children.
Hosea 9:16;”Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. Even if they bear children, I will slay their cherished offspring.”
Psalm 137:8-9;O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Hosea 13:16;… because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
Earthquakes Kill People and Babies
“You shall be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake…” (Isa. 29:6).
Floods:
“And with the blast of Thy [God’s] nostrils the waters were gathered together [Heb: ‘piled up’], the floods stood upright as an heap [Heb: ‘mound, a wave’ as in the tsunami quake which caused a huge wave!], and the depths [Heb: ‘an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply), Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary] were congealed in the heart of the sea” (Exodus 15:8).
Plagues and Diease:
“Moreover He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt, which you were afraid of and they shall cleave unto you. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of the law, them will the Lord bring upon you, until you be destroyed” (Deut. 28:60-61)
“The LORD shall smite you with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish” (Deut. 28:22).
Poverty:
“The LORD makes poor…” (I Sam. 2:7).
“The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of all” (Prov. 22:2).
Famine:
“Moreover He [God] called for a famine upon the land: He broke the whole staff of bread” (Psalm 105:16).
“And I [God] will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from the land…” (Jer. 24:10).
Afflictions:
“…the Lord has testified against me, and the Almighty has afflicted [Heb: ‘to make good for nothing’] me” (Ruth 1:21).
“And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them [Heb: ‘hurt and weakened’]” (II Kings 17:20).
Killing with the Sword:
“I [God] will consume them by the sword…” (Jer. 14:12).
“I [God] will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their father have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them” (Jer. 9:16).
WAR:
“The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is His name” (Ex. 15:3).
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war” (Rev. 19:11).
Destruction:
“Howl! Ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty” (Isa. 13:6).
“Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15).
“PESTILENCE:
“And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall DIE of a great pestilence” (Jer. 21:6).
“If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people…” (II Chron. 7:13).
HAIL :
“Behold, tomorrow about this time I will CAUSE it to rain a very grievous hail, such as has not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now” (Ex. 9:18).
“I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labors of your hands, yet ye turned not to me, saith the Lord” (Haggai 2:17).
ICE, COLD AND FROST :
“He casts forth His ice like morsels: who can stand before His cold?” (Psalm 147:17).
“He DESTROYED their vines with hail, and their sycamore trees with frost” (Psalm 78:47).
KILLING :
“And My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless” (Ex. 22:24).
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven… a time to kill…” (Ecc. 3:1 & 3).
SLAUGHTER :
“And the Lord discomfited them before Israel; and slew them with a great slaughter…” (Joshua 10:10).
“For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter” ( Isa. 34:2).
CALAMITY :
“I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will show them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity” (Jer. 18:17).
“…and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, says the Lord” (Jer. 49:32).
WIND :
“You break the ships of Tarshish with an east wind…” (Psalm 48:7).
“Thus says the Lord; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon… a destroying wind” (Jer. 51:1).
GRIEF :
“You did say, Woe is me now! For the Lord has added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest” (Jer. 45:3).
“But though He [God] cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies” (Lam. 3:32).
FIRE :
“Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven” (Gen. 19:24).
“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them” (Rev. 20:9).
FOREST FIRES :
“…I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it” (Jer. 21:14).
“And say to the forest… I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee…” (Ezek. 20:47).
WILD BEASTS :
“I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate” (Lev. 26:22).
“They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust” (Deut. 32:24).
would you like me to give you more PROOF that according to the bible it is ALL of God. “God is operating ALL and ALL” what is it that you do not understand about that statement? are you truly that foolish? You are clearly brainwashed but maybe the great teachings of me will help one day. read it enough times and it may be revealed to you. Remember, I am surely the few and you are clearly the many. What did god say about the many?
December 27, 2008 at 12:47 pm
It is amazing how everyone blames God for everything evil in the world but never satan.
Maybe this is the reason:
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees31 heard this they said, “He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul,32 the ruler33 of demons!”
Mat 12:25 Now when Jesus34 realized what they were thinking, he said to them,35 “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed,36 and no town or house divided against itself will stand.
Mat 12:26 So if37 Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons38 cast them39 out? For this reason they will be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God40 has already overtaken41 you.
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God,50 and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one [satan].
[Scripture says that the whole world lies in the power of satan. It also says that if satan casts out satan, then the result would be satan being divided against himself. So if you are of this world, you will naturally blame God. Therefore by this, satan casts out God and satan's kingdom is not divided against itself.]
Joh 8:47 The one who belongs to117 God listens and responds118 to God’s words. You don’t listen and respond,119 because you don’t belong to God.”120
[Those who accuse and disobey God do not belong to Him. They belong to the world. They listen to their father, the father of lies, satan]
December 27, 2008 at 8:28 pm
You can look at my other post regarding Satan. Satan was clearly, created by God for the very purpose of what he does. I supplied the proof in many scriptures in one of my other comments to you. I have much more if you need it. You would be rather ignorant if you actually thought God didn’t know exactly what would happen and that he didn’t plan for everything to happen. He created Satan and you think he didn’t know what satan would do and since the bible stated he had already planned for jesus to be sacrificed from the beginning that somehow he didn’t already realize what was going to happen? Not a very powerful “all knowing” God if he didn’t see that one coming. He would be rather an idiot…wouldn’t he? The all knowing Christian God that didn’t realize that putting the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden and creating Satan would end up doing? Now that would be one ignorant and clueless God. But apparently this is the God you believe in. Amazing isn’t it. sorry to reveal more truth to you.
December 27, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Scripture says God is sovereign and is ultimately in control over all things (has the last say). So if He has this power, then why is it inconceivable to understand that it is possible for God to preserve His own word (the “Bible”) and to keep it safe and intake through the ages, to stand the test of time throughout history. And why is it the most widely circulated literary piece of all time? And why has the recent discovery of the dead sea scrolls verified the authenticity of our existing bible.
December 27, 2008 at 8:32 pm
you reveal much of your ignorance of the bible and the many versions of the bible. have you not read some of the earlier bibles? have you not even read the comments that used to be in the sides of these bibles to claim that some material was likely not even true? do you not know that the earliest bibles don’t even have jesus rising from the dead. you are truly lazy when it comes to reading and knowing some facts about religion and bibles. the internet is there for you to use and i would suggest you start to educate yourself.
Notice, I do not believe and therefore i can present my opinion far more objectively. I do not believe and do not hate god as it is clear i can not hate if i don’t even believe in him/her. however, you MUST believe as you do or Else something horrible will happen. Not an objective point of view. Just like you believe that if you do as god wants, you will receive great rewards in heaven to include eternal life. Kind of like asking someone to tell use the truth about smoking and yet that person is being paid millions by the very industry that provides those products.
see the logic?
December 27, 2008 at 9:45 pm
You say evil is of God because it is according to the Bible. This is a false statement because the Bible never declares that evil is from God. What the Bible does say is that God hates evil. You make an inference that the Bible makes the claim that evil is of God. This is your own inference. It is not Biblical because the Bible does not specifically say that evil is of God. But I showed you in scripture where it does specifically say that God hates evil. So using logical reasoning if God hates evil how can He be the author of it?
Show me where the Bible says that God is the originator of evil without making an inference.
December 27, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Just because you don’t believe the truth doesn’t mean you can just wish it away according to your will. You are not the creator, you are the creation whether you like it or not. Why? Because science cannot disprove creationism. In fact many scientists today actually acknowledge intelligent design and therefore an intelligent designer and point to the flaws of the so cherished darwinism theory. Rent Expelled to learn more. That’s the beauty of choice you can believe or not believe. Its called free will and you are exercising it today. You try to disprove the Bible by saying something it does not specifically say and then declare victory.
December 27, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I think I disproved your inference very effectively by showing you specific scripture that would render your inference an incorrect interpretation of scripture that does not reconcile with other verses in the Bible. Don’t you know that if you have inconsistencies in scripture then your interpretation of scripture is incorrect. This is why I concluded with scripture that says you can only interpret it correctly if you yourself are spiritual. Scripture cannot contradict itself. But then I ask myself why do I need to justify myself to a self declared atheist. You are free to choose just like I am able. I will carry on with my business as will you. After all this is a battle between Good and Evil or the Godly vs the Godless as the Bible puts it.
Even though they hear they do not understand. Even though they see, they are blind.
December 27, 2008 at 10:18 pm
truelogic says, “Do you think everything is NOT of the will of God?”
Actually if you reread my quotes, you will see where God was displeased with the fact that His creation turned to evil . Obviously if God hates evil, then it is not according to His will that His creation turns to evil. If then it is not His will, then His creation in substance has rebelled against Him and hence we have and end product of transgression and judgment.
It is illogical for the Bible to talk about the coming judgment unless there is accountability and free will (freedom of choice)
And when did you think that a sovereign God and free will were incompatible. You can have both. Free will is just constrained. Mankind just has certain limits in which it can exercise its free will and it can never override God’s.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make47
humankind48 in our image, after our likeness,49 so they may rule50 over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth,51 and over all the creatures that move52 on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 God created humankind53 in his own image,
in the image of God he created them,54
male and female he created them.55
Gen 1:28 God blessed56 them and said57 to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it!58 Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.”59
Gen 1:29 Then God said, “I now60 give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the entire earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.61
These verses suggest that God gave man free will over His creation. To exercise dominion over the earth.
December 27, 2008 at 10:33 pm
truelogic says “Do you think everything is NOT of the will of God?”
Even granting mankind free will can be the will of God don’t you know?
December 27, 2008 at 11:00 pm
truelogic says “Additionally, I can promise you that I have won more souls to the truth about the lies of the bible than you have or could win to your version of God….whatever version or denomination you believe it may be.”
First of all do not make a promise you cannot keep.
Jas 4:14 You18 do not know about tomorrow. What is your life like?19 For you are a puff of smoke20 that appears for a short time and then vanishes.
You yourself do not know what will happen to you when you die. Personally I would advise that one believe in something rather than nothing. With nothing in hand you are sure to lose. At least with my Bible in hand I have something I can grasp hold of and enter into death with confidence. You cannot escape death. As surely as I a writing this message to you today, you will one day die and if you have not truly repented by then, you will die in your sins.
Heb 9:27 And just as people31 are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment,32
It is obvious in the above scripture that there will be no second chances. Once you are dead scripture states that all you have to look forward to at that point is the coming judgment. You will not be able to beg God for mercy at this point. It is game over. All you have to look forward to without Jesus as your Advocate is eternal condemnation because I assure you that you will be found guilty without Jesus.
I have no doubt that you have turned more souls towards your way of thinking. In fact the Bible predicts it.
Mat 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
If you bothered to notice, the Bible is not looking for sheer number of souls. Just a few handful of loyal and true followers of the true God and originator of life.
December 27, 2008 at 11:25 pm
truelogic says, “You are like many religious people and like to say Lucifer or Satan was created by God but he transgressed of his own desire or will. However, scripture, AGAIN doesn’t agree with you grasshopper.”
You claim that scripture states that God caused Satan to sin against God but do not give me specific scripture that says this. Again if you are relying on your inference, if you reread my previous scripture, it disproves your inference that God supports evil. Scripture says God hates evil and therefore logically cannot be the author of it. Otherwise we end up with a God with a split personality by your interpretation.
1Jn 1:5 Now12 this is the gospel13 message14 we have heard from him15 and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.16
God is pure light [goodness] and in him there is no darkness [evil] at all.
If there is not evil in God at all, how can He be its author?
December 27, 2008 at 11:36 pm
truelogic says, “It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN — he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner “FROM THE BEGINNING”! Do you not read the bible?”
Actually I do read the Bible, thanks for asking.
Where in the Bible does it say that satan was created specifically for the purpose of being God’s Adversary?
Joh 8:44 You people105 are from106 your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires.107 He108 was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth,109 because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies,110 he speaks according to his own nature,111 because he is a liar and the father of lies.112
When did satan become a murderer? I don’t recall that He murdered anyone in heaven. Oh ya, he murdered Able when he entered Cain.
December 27, 2008 at 11:46 pm
truelogic says, “It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN — they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the “image of God,” and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:”
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make47
humankind48 in our image, after our likeness,49 so they may rule50 over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth,51 and over all the creatures that move52 on the earth.”
They were already formed in the image of God prior to their fall. Your statement is pure inference that it was a requisite. In fact their fall caused eternal death. How has eternal death become a requisite of becoming an eternal God.
God curses them because of the fall and declares that they will die because of their disobedience. How is this a requisite to Godship?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, “Now64 that the man has become like one of us,65 knowing66 good and evil, he must not be allowed67 to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
December 28, 2008 at 12:01 am
truelogic says, “God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! “Declaring the end from the beginning…” (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are “accountable” for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes “responsibility” for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:”
Your inference again is inconsistent with scripture and illogical. Show me scripture that specifically says that God takes responsibility for the sins of satan and mankind.
You say God took responsibility for their sins and provided for a Savior. But through scripture we know many will be condemned to hell by God. How is God just in all of this. You say by your interpretation of scripture that he caused satan and mankind to sin, and therefore somehow felt responsible and because of this so called guilt, He provided a Savior which the majority will not accept (including yourself) and in turn will be condemned by God whose fault you claim was His in the first place. I see a problem in seeing both the goodness and justice of God’s character in the way you are interpreting scripture.
The Bible never states that God provided satan a Savior. Jesus is only for mankind only.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned,15 but threw them into hell16 and locked them up17 in chains18 in utter darkness,19 to be kept until the judgment,
December 28, 2008 at 12:06 am
truelogic says, “WOW…..Did you catch that grasshopper? Seems God planned even that from the beginning.”
It wasn’t so much as God planning, but rather God intervening to try to divert the course His creation was heading, into destruction. He was providing a way to escape the destruction which man set into motion by the initial fall.
For the wages of sin is death.
December 28, 2008 at 12:29 am
truelogic says, “Therefore, he had to intend for Adam and Eve to Sin. Amazing what scripture reviles to the chosen few. Remember, I am the few and you are the many fools that believe what you are told by the church and mommy and daddy.”
Scripture would never reveal truth to an unbeliever like yourself, because an unbeliever cannot discern the truth. You must first believe in order to receive the truth.
Under what authority do you claim that you are of the chosen few. Your own?
This is what the Bible says in response:
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool41 is right42 in his own opinion,43 but the one who listens to advice is wise.44
Pro 12:16 A fool’s annoyance45 is known at once,46
but the prudent47 overlooks48 an insult.
Pro 13:16 Every shrewd60 person acts with knowledge,
but a fool displays61 his folly.
Pro 14:16 A wise person is cautious42 and turns from evil,
but a fool throws off restraint43 and is overconfident.44
Pro 18:2 A fool takes no pleasure4 in understanding
but only in disclosing5 what is on his mind.
Pro 20:3 It is an honor for a person7 to cease8 from strife,
but every fool quarrels.9
Pro 23:9 Do not speak in the ears of a fool,17
for he will despise the wisdom of your words.18
Pro 29:11 A fool lets fly with all his temper,35
but a wise person keeps it back.36
Actually who told me was God himself through His Holy Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 Now as for you, the anointing57 that you received from him58 resides59 in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as his60 anointing teaches you about all things, it is true and is not a lie. Just as61 it62 has taught you, you reside63 in him.
December 28, 2008 at 12:43 am
Rev 13:7 The beast22 was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them.23 He was given ruling authority24 over every tribe, people,25 language, and nation,
Rev 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.28
[Limited or constrained free does not negate God's will. Scripture states that the beast was permitted... So it got God's approval. But in order to be permitted, the beast first must have had the desire (its own will) to war against the Saints. So individual free will and God's will can coexist simultaneously so long as the individual will falls within the will of God. I am sure if it was up to God's own will He would not have chosen His beloved Saints to endure senseless punishment. But what if, in seizing the opportunity, through the evil intentions of the beast, God used it to demonstrate the goodness of His Saints, to testify against the beast their loyalty and to test how genuine their faiths were, then He would logically allow the beast to exercise its free will to war against the saints]
December 28, 2008 at 12:51 am
truelogic says, “It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit.”
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil,15 and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires.
Jas 1:15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.
Sounds like by your statement you are agreeing that God created humans with the ability to desire. Scripture says God tempts no one. It also says that each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires [not God's desires]
December 28, 2008 at 1:01 am
Gen 6:6 The LORD regretted24 that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended.25
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — everything from humankind to animals,26 including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”
Gen 6:8 But27 Noah found favor28 in the sight of29 the LORD.
By your inference and interpretation of scripture, truelogic, you again would make God into a split personality. If he causes all things to occur, then why did He regret making His creation. Even though He saw its outcome, why did He even start? Scripture says He was highly offended. By your interpretation, we find God offending himself. [Nonsense]
You want the answer… even though He regretted making His creation He saw hope and in Revelation we eventually see a partial successful redemption of His creation.
December 28, 2008 at 1:22 am
Truelogic said, “It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Mat. 15:19).”
Firstly, your proof quote talks about mans condition after the fall. Its called total depravity of man.
Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made — and it was very good!63 There was evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.
Ecc 7:29 This alone have I discovered: God made humankind upright, but they have sought many evil schemes.
Secondly, before the fall, God saw His creation as good. For God to declare something to be good it had to be perfect. In the beginning God made mankind upright.
December 28, 2008 at 1:36 am
Truelogic said, “It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: “And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat” (Gen. 3:6).”
If satan did not go and tempt Eve she would have never considered tasting of the tree. Remember God did not only punish Eve, but also the serpent. But through the temptation,the human desires were aroused and her sensations heightened and the pure heart began to desire what was wrong and she began to defile herself. And the fall began…
You claim that she was given an impure heart. Scripture says God made things perfect and it was man that made things imperfect through transgression.
December 28, 2008 at 1:58 am
Truelogic said, “Did you notice that last phrase “…and did eat”? It was not the “eating” of the fruit that made her a sinner — she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she “did eat.””
Here is what scripture says about order:
Jas 1:15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.
desire turns into sin. desire= thought; sin=acting out the thought.
Gen 3:6 When15 the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food,16 was attractive17 to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise,18 she took some of its fruit and ate it.19 She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.20
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Scripture does not talk about Adam desiring and lusting over the fruit. She simply gave it to him to eat.
Gen 3:11 And the LORD God28 said, “Who told you that you were naked?29 Did you eat from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”30
God didn’t ask if they lusted after the fruit, but He asked them if they ate of the fruit. It was the eating of the fruit, not lusting (desiring) over it that caused them to behold their own nakedness. Therefore in conclusion, if they stopped at the desire stage and would not have eaten the fruit, they would not have committed sin because they would not have known their nakedness.
December 28, 2008 at 2:29 am
Truelogic said “You may want to tell God this statement from his word is not true and you may want to deny it, but it is FACT from SCRIPTURE:
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS” (Isaiah 45:6-7).”
Here is my bible translation:
Isa 45:7 I am13 the one who forms light
and creates darkness;14
the one who brings about peace
and creates calamity.15
I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
You are using KJV which is sometimes known to have awkward or antiquated wording.
Is God really the one who created evil, according to this passage? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil “rah” is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.
First of all, the Hebrew word for evil “rah” is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as “evil.” The other 232 times it is translated as “wicked”, “bad”, “hurt”, “harm”, “ill”, “sorrow”, “mischief”, “displeased”, “adversity”, “affliction”, “trouble”, “calamity”, “grievous”, “misery”, and “trouble.” So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as “evil.” This is why different Bibles [like mine] translate this verse differently. It is translated as “calamity” by the NASB and NKJV; “disaster” by the NIV; and “woe” by the RSV;
Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena. Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause “well-being/peace” as well as “calamity.” Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc.
Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.
Deu 32:4 As for the Rock,3 his work is perfect,
for all his ways are just.
He is a reliable God who is never unjust,
he is fair4 and upright.
Hab 1:13 You are too just42 to tolerate43 evil;
you are unable to condone44 wrongdoing.
So why do you put up with such treacherous people?45 Why do you say nothing when the wicked devour46 those more righteous than they are?47
We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word “rah” (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually, the verse is speaking calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity.
December 28, 2008 at 2:43 am
Truelogic said, “Satan was NOT “Lucifer” (a supposed perfect archangel) from the beginning; Satan was “Satan” from the beginning. Satan is an EVIL creature. He has been an evil creature from his very creation. Satan is not the result of a Godly experiment gone wrong! Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God’s adversary. Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place.”
What??!? If satan did not exist, there would not have been a fall, and most of mankind would not have been condemned to hell in the final outcome. If God did not create satan in the first place, Adam and Eve would still be in paradise and all of their offspring would be living in paradise instead of being condemned (majority) in hell.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned,15 but threw them into hell16 and locked them up17 in chains18 in utter darkness,19 to be kept until the judgment,
Notice it does not say God did not spare the demons who sinned. It says God did not spare the angels that sinned, because prior to their fall they were pure and Holy, but after the transgression they became demons or fallen angels. Lucifer is the head demon.
December 28, 2008 at 3:00 am
Truelogic said, “Do you wonder why I am able to show the truth to hundreds of Teens each year? Now, a certain percentage of those teens continue to help me spread the word along with many pamphlets I leave in christian book stores, larger book stores (nicely hidden in christian books) and I love to leave them in coffee shops….seems to get my greatest replies from coffee shops.”
Rom 16:17 Now I urge you, brothers and sisters,16 to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles contrary to the teaching that you learned. Avoid them!
Rom 16:18 For these are the kind who do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By their smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds17 of the naive.
Rom 16:19 Your obedience is known to all and thus I rejoice over you. But I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.
Rom 16:20 The God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
December 28, 2008 at 3:20 am
Truelogic said, “Do you need more proof that I am yet correct again? I am happy to keep going. Try to learn what I have taught you and then I will give you more food to grow. You can thank me later.”
It seems your goal is to cause people to hate the God of the Bible. Consequently it is the same goal of satan.
December 28, 2008 at 3:23 am
Truelogic said, “You can make up anything you like. I really don’t care. Everything that happens was Planned from the beginning.”
Actually I make nothing up. Everything I communicated to you is scriptural.
“I really don’t care”… do I sense some frustration?
Not everything was planned by God. Some stuff was permitted and God used it to His advantage to serve His will in the end. (He has the last say)
December 28, 2008 at 3:32 am
Truelogic said, “Every sin you commit and the exact day you would give your heart to Jesus and the day you will die. It is all “before ordained”. Really, read your bible.”
Just because God can peer into the future to see outcomes prior to them actually taking place does not mean that God has to be the one making all of the decisions. Because He can see the future, He can know who will by their own choice eventually turn to him and those that eventually will turn away or not come at all.
December 28, 2008 at 3:43 am
Truelogic said, “However, you should stop lying to kids and others by telling them your lies. Tell it like it is and as it is stated. You are welcome to your opinion but that is all you are giving. Unless God himself gave YOU the special person all the truth and the rest of us low people are not worthy of your gift..haha. yeah, right.”
The truth is available to all who believe. You do not believe now, therefore you can no longer receive the truth but what remains is a hardened heart that has hostility towards the creator.
Want to know why?
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the filthy things76 of the world through the rich knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,77 they78 again get entangled in them and succumb to them,79 their last state has become worse for them than their first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, having known it, to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 They are illustrations of this true proverb:80 “A dog returns to its own vomit,”81 and “A sow, after washing herself,82 wallows in the mire.”83
Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us,30
Heb 10:27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury 31 of fire that will consume God’s enemies.32
Heb 10:28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death33 without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.34
Heb 10:29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for35 the Son of God, and profanes36 the blood of the covenant that made him holy,37 and insults the Spirit of grace?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.
December 28, 2008 at 3:58 am
Trulogic said “In the end, ALL will be saved as “every tongue shall confess jesus christ is lord”. did you get that, EVERY tongue? Why is this? of course, the bible makes it clear that it would not be just if God that causes ALL actually punished you for what he causes. “yet all is of God”.”
Wow? It is frightening to me that you actually believe what you write!!!
Rom 14:11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.”8
Rom 14:12 Therefore, each of us will give an account of himself to God.9
Isa 45:23 I solemnly make this oath56 —
what I say is true and reliable:57
‘Surely every knee will bow to me,
every tongue will solemnly affirm;58
Isa 45:24 they will say about me,
“Yes, the LORD is a powerful deliverer.” ‘ “59
All who are angry at him will cower before him.60
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived26 them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur,27 where the beast and the false prophet are28 too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 The Great White Throne
Then29 I saw a large30 white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven31 fled32 from his presence, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then33 books were opened, and another book was opened — the book of life.34 So35 the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.36
Rev 20:13 The37 sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death38 and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then39 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 If40 anyone’s name41 was not found written in the book of life, that person42 was thrown into the lake of fire.
You are gravely mistaken. Every knee will bow and tongue confess out of fear. Scripture still says that everyone will give an account of their deeds and will be judged accordingly. Those not found in the book of life shall be throne in the lake of fire where satan will already be.
May I remind you:
Mat 7:13 The Narrow Gate
“Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
That is, their will be few names written in the book of life. In contrast many will go into destruction, lake of fire.
December 28, 2008 at 4:03 am
Truelogic said ““I create EVIL” (Isa. 45:7)”
I reconciled this in a previous post. However, what is amazing is that you pull out one verse and try to make a case around it, despite the fact that I showed you many other verses in the Bible that speak of God hating evil. Pretty weak.
December 29, 2008 at 12:53 pm
your opinion is that i pull out one verse. i am happy to let the readers decide for themselves. i pull out far more verses than you and from many books and they all support each other. you pull out verses and then fail to relate any of them to each other or explain many of them. typical. my record clearly shows that what I am doing has worked. would you like to see some of the emails?
December 28, 2008 at 4:21 am
Truelogic said, “Outside of murder by drowning of babies and infants in God’s mass flood. We have religious types telling us God will Torture billions with FIRE for Eternity.
In my Opinion, Torture and Murder are Evil. NOT MORAL”
And who defines what is moral? Where does this human morality come from. Oh so you write the rules now. You can’t even save yourself from death and you want to be the judge of what is right or wrong.
Now that is really funny. What arrogance. Actually this exercise in text has strengthened my faith because everything the Bible says about people like you is true.
Jud 1:18 For they said to you, “In the end time there will come84 scoffers, propelled by their own ungodly desires.”85
Jud 1:19 These people are divisive,86 worldly,87 devoid of the Spirit.88
Eph 5:6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.9
Col 2:4 I say this so that no one will deceive you through arguments7 that sound reasonable.8
Rom 16:18 For these are the kind who do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By their smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds17 of the naive.
December 29, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I didn’t write any rules. Society as a whole writes the rules and apparently to burn children and drown them is NOT moral.
Can you name one ungodly desire I have? You apparently think it is ok to drown children and burn them ..torture. I don’t. you worship a god that does such things. pretty sick.
Again, it is God that deceives and scripture backsup my statement. it seems you take some scriptures, apply them where you want and don’t bother to understand the entire bible. read it all and get the big picture. I am sorry your God deceives you and that you can not prove that he doesn’t. kind of like you can’t prove your God or disprove anyone else’s God.
again, you provide many claims for which you can NOT Prove. i provide the logic, the scripture and even explain it.
you provided the scriptures above and then FAILED to show how it applies to me.
let us look at the first one. i am apparently propelled by my own ungodly desires. can you prove that even remotely? NO. it is your FALSE judgment. I wonder what God says about judgement? haha.
let us look at the next one. can you prove i am divisive, worldly or devoid of the spirit? can you prove you are not? again, another claim you can’t backup.
let us look at the next one…this is fun:
can you prove any of my words are empty? or deceive? NO, absolutely NOT. another lie by you? why do you need to lie so often. one lies when they don’t know the truth. again, i have proven that it is god that deceives and you have no choice.
let us look at the next one:
basically, what the hell are you trying to tell me here? it is yet another comment for which you can provide not a shred of evidence to support. be more specific.
let us look at the last one….
can you prove I do not serve the lord? or that i serve my own appetitie? NO. you can make all the judgments you want. maybe i serve the lord in the way he has decided as EVERYThing is according to the will of God. but you have NO proof to prove any other way. again, you just make false judgments. your god is not going to be happy with you. unless you serve the devil. if you sin, then we know you are of the devil as scripture makes that clear as welll. wait, you will even admit you sin…so you are of the devil. I don’t sin. sorry.
can you prove that the “smooth talk and flattery” of the church or mom and dad has not deceived you? NO. you can’t. it could be talking about the church deceiving you. do you realize that SATAN lives in the church. that is the best place to deceive the people.
basically, you have NO proof for any of your statements and can not link them to me in any way.
here is the amazing thing. you spend so much time debating the bible with me and yet children are dying for lack of food and water and medication. the time and money you spend on computers and writing could be applied to saving lives in places that need you. jesus christ would do it but you apparently think you are best serving christ by sitting on your butt and writing to me. wow. i thank you for proving my point that most christians are hypocrites. when it comes down to actually doing something, the dont’ do it.
i would encourage you to go do something to help a child in need. stop judging others as your God told you not to judge others..of course, unless you are perfect. you seem to think you are.
peace
peace
December 28, 2008 at 9:25 am
Truelogic you call some of God actions immoral because humans are not just (look at the world around you, full of corruption; the best part of it all is mankind is to blame for it entirely). You are blind to the fact that God has rightly judged already those He has sentenced to death. Besides this is the dreaded sovereignty of God which mankind fears. When He decides to use it no one cannot resist Him. I leave you with a set of difficult verses so that prophecy may be fulfilled.
Rev 22:11 The evildoer must continue to do evil,27 and the one who is morally filthy28 must continue to be filthy. The29 one who is righteous must continue to act righteously, and the one who is holy must continue to be holy.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”29
Rom 9:16 So then,30 it does not depend on human desire or exertion,31 but on God who shows mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh:32 “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”33
Rom 9:18 So then,34 God35 has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.36
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who indeed are you — a mere human being37 — to talk back to God?38 Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?”39
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay40 one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?41
Rom 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects42 of wrath43 prepared for destruction?44
Rom 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects45 of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory —
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Is the good and sovereign God of the universe, maker of all things not able to sacrifice few objects and destine them for wrath for the benefit of many?
Remember that Pharaoh was already judged and headed towards hell because He did not believe in the true God. This condition [as it is with the world today]was before God hardened His heart. Why did God harden His heart? So that his eyes would not accidently be opened by the many miraculous signs sent to Him to convince Him to release the Israelites. Was God just. Yes because Pharaoh was already condemned by his disbelief. By hardening Pharaoh’s heart God denied Pharaoh his mercy and therefore left him in his sins without any hope of salvation.
2Th 2:9 The arrival of the lawless one18 will be by Satan’s working with all kinds of miracles19 and signs and false wonders,2Th 2:10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against20 those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth21 so as to be saved.2Th 2:11 Consequently22 God sends on them a deluding influence23 so that they will believe what is false.
God sends on the world in end times a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. Why? Because scripture says they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved.
See, they already believed a lie, because they did not have a place in their heart for the truth. Opposite to truth is a lie. There are many different lies in the world people believe, but there is only one truth. God, by sending them a deluding influence seals their fate once and for all and fulfilling the first of the verses I have listed. Let the immoral continue to do immoral things. He has sealed them in their sins just like He did to Pharaoh and made it so they could not have access to His mercy any longer.
December 28, 2008 at 9:34 am
Truelogic said, “Do you wonder why I am able to show the truth to hundreds of Teens each year? Now, a certain percentage of those teens continue to help me spread the word along with many pamphlets I leave in christian book stores, larger book stores (nicely hidden in christian books) and I love to leave them in coffee shops….seems to get my greatest replies from coffee shops.”
Mar 10:15 I tell you the truth,22 whoever does not receive23 the kingdom of God like a child24 will never25 enter it.”
Mat 18:5 And whoever welcomes4 a child like this in my name welcomes me.Mat 18:6 “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,5 it would be better for him to have a huge millstone6 hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea.7
Mat 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It8 is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come.
So according to scripture, woe to you Truelogic, woe to you who deceives the naive and fragile children in Christ.
December 29, 2008 at 12:51 pm
You logic is greatly flawed. “EVERY tongue SHALL confess that Christ is Lord”. What happens if I confess to God that jesus christ is lord? that is correct, I will be saved. Apparently, the bible tells us this WILL happen. I imagine that if an all powerful God appeared before us we would likely believe and confess. Do you have scripture that tells us that when we confess that it needs to be at a specific time or we will not be saved?
What you don’t understand about the bible is TONS about revelation. It is not literal and the all consuming fire is the fire of God that purifies All children so they will ALL be saved. that is why so many of the scriptures I have provided you clearly show that ALL will be saved. however, you are welcome to keep the program in your head that mom and dad and church and society have given you and continue to believe that your god of moral love will torture billions. I assume that is why the christian president bush and his christian vp and the other christians that put him in office have NO problem with allowing torture of humans. their heavenly father does it so they assume it is ok. pretty sick
December 28, 2008 at 9:42 am
Truelogic, by your actions you are only fulfilling prophecy. Thanks.
Mat 24:24 For false messiahs32 and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
You will never be able to deceive God’s elect people because His elect will endure through it. God who sees the future foresaw that they would and in His scripture calls them His elect (loyal followers).
My Spirit attests that the day is coming quickly. Even though I do not know the hour day and year, my soul senses its timely arrival. Surely you can see the world beginning to change with numerous occurrence unexplainable. Understand that these sign will become more and more intense, and then the tribulation (wrath of God) will begin. You have been warned and one judgment day none of you will be able to tell the God of the universe that you did not know. You have been witnessed to. Peace.
December 29, 2008 at 12:45 pm
HisChild, If I help fulfill your God’s prophecy than I am glad I can be of help. It is possible that you are helping to fulfill the prophecy of the magic God dog as well. However, I am not foolish enough to make a claim that I can NOT backup. You are always welcome to make all the claims you want and not back them up. I might start to see your “truth” if you could back any of your claims up with facts.
You may think I am trying to deceive God’s elect people and you may even think you are one of the elect. A little pride and a big ego. the almighty god picked you as an elect? aren’t we special. Fact is, if the bible is correct, I can not decide to deceive anyone. It is up to God that causes me to do everything I do at the appointed time. Remember the scripture that God appoints a time for EVERY matter and EVERY event? Why do you insist on ignoring God’s word?
Also, if I did deceive people, it is up to God cause me “God operates all in all” and sometimes God chooses to deceive people.
“And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet” (Ezek. 14:9).
Did you not read scripture that clearly shows us that god at times sends “lying spirits” to DECEIVE? It is God that deceives and if he is all powerful, he does it for a reason and apparently you can not grasp the reason. It is very possible that God has deceived YOU and guess what? If God wanted to deceive you, he would do it PERFECTLY and you would BELIEVE any LIE he wanted to tell you. Again, it would NOT be up to you…NOT YOUR choice. It seems that we again come back to NO free will and more examples that support what I have been telling you.
Let me also help you realize that I am NO PROPHET and of course no messiah…true or false or anywhere between.
You spirit attest that the day is coming quickly. YOU don’t apparently know much about history. Do you realize how often this has been said and how many people believed just as completely as you do that this is coming quickly. Just what is quickly to you people? 1000’s of years? It is so amazing how you feel your times are full of things that can’t be explained or terrible. people see these signs in all their various times for which they claimed the EXACT things that you claim. ironic, isn’t it. you are only able to see your world and your view of the world. you have no ability to put yourself into the shoes of others in this day and time or in the past. i suggest you read lots more history.
“every tongue shall confess that jesus christ is lord”…that is apparently God’s word. apparently you feel that God doesn’t mean that every tongue will confess and therefore all will be saved. that doesn’t surprise me. many that claim to be christian seem to have this love affair with eternal torture by fire. i wonder if it is that their lives might suck a bit and it is their way of making themselves feel better that one day others will feel as miserable as they do now. i wouldn’t know but i would guess it applies to some.
peace
December 28, 2008 at 12:29 pm
So we have to rely on people like Truelogic for prophesy to be fulfilled or not? God’s not in charge?
HisChild, what’s so special about your spirit and soul? Have you done something that makes you better able to sense “its timely arrival?” Isn’t it the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God that reveals stuff to us? I think you have some things pretty messed up in your thinking.
His, while I’m on the same “side” as you (I am a believer/follower/elect whatever you want to call it), I think your arguments are totally dogmatic and cliche and devoid of individual thought.
Your comments have really shown support for Truelogic’s premise that most Christians can’t think for themselves. Thanks for the help…
December 29, 2008 at 12:30 pm
He seems to wonder why you are not taking a side and he seems to think that because you are a Christian you should take his side. That is my take. It is kind of like since I am a white guy I should vote for the white president or support the white people when anything comes up between white and black. Or since i am straight i shouldn’t not support gay rights. In a sense we should be robots and only support our “party” regardless of it being right or wrong.
Hey Jason, good to get your comments. I know you don’t always agree with me but you are a thinker and that forces me to think and at times revise my “logic”.
peace
December 28, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Jason said, “So we have to rely on people like Truelogic for prophesy to be fulfilled or not? God’s not in charge?
HisChild, what’s so special about your spirit and soul? Have you done something that makes you better able to sense “its timely arrival?” Isn’t it the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God that reveals stuff to us? I think you have some things pretty messed up in your thinking.
His, while I’m on the same “side” as you (I am a believer/follower/elect whatever you want to call it), I think your arguments are totally dogmatic and cliche and devoid of individual thought.
Your comments have really shown support for Truelogic’s premise that most Christians can’t think for themselves. Thanks for the help…”
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Thanks for your reply Jason.
Its all part of the plan. People like truelogic are just helping to fulfill it. Of course God always has the last say. But in the present truelogic is helping Christians turn away from God. This is prophecy.
(KJV+) Let noG3361 manG5100 deceiveG1818 youG5209 byG2596 anyG3367 means:G5158 forG3754 that day shall not come, exceptG3362 there comeG2064 a falling awayG646 first,G4412 andG2532 that manG444 of sinG266 be revealed,G601 theG3588 sonG5207 of perdition;G684
When there is wide spread apostasy or falling away by the Christian churches from the truth, then anti-christ will be revealed to the world and tribulation and God’s wrath shall begin.
By my spirit I was referring to the Holy Spirit that indwells. I find it strange that you, a Christian, needs clarification in such matters? By my soul I was referring my eternal soul which greaves and is troubled for this world and the level of unbelief present in it, because the time is near.
You are correct in saying that the Holy Spirit of God reveals stuff to us. You ask, have I done something that makes me better able to sense the future. Not anything different from any other follower of Christ. I asked and received.
Jas 1:5 But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him.
Jas 1:6 But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed around by the wind.
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord,
Jas 1:8 since he is a double-minded individual,6 unstable in all his ways.
Rom 12:6 And we have different gifts8 according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith.
My gift I am convinced is prophecy because it has convicted me many times over in my Spirit.
Why do you say you are on the same side as me. You do not know anything about me. And I know nothing of you. Do you think that we are the same because each of us declares ourselves to be Christian? The true Christian is this:
Jas 1:22 But be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it and so deceive yourselves.
Jas 1:23 For if someone merely listens to the message and does not live it out, he is like someone25 who gazes at his own face26 in a mirror.
Jas 1:24 For he gazes at himself and then goes out and immediately forgets27 what sort of person he was.
Jas 1:25 But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there,28 and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out — he29 will be blessed in what he does.30
Jas 1:26 If someone thinks he is religious yet does not bridle his tongue, and so deceives his heart, his religion is futile.
Jas 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before31 God the Father32 is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Scripture says pure religion includes that we keep ourselves unstained by the world. How many Christian do you think qualify in this category. It is estimated that about 5% of the Christian populous world wide consists of practicing, bible believing Christians. Pretty sad statistic if you ask me.
Christianity is not about having individual thought. It is about aligning our free will, freely, with God’s will in gratitude of what he was done on the cross for us. In essence, it is giving our free will back to Him because we have realized that He can take better care of us than we can and because through the help of His Holy Spirit we take delight in His law and commandments.
Psa 112:1
Praise the LORD!
How blessed is the one2 who obeys3 the LORD,
who takes great delight in keeping his commands.4
Psa 119:47 I will find delight in your commands,
which I love.
Psa 119:70 Their hearts are calloused,101
but I find delight in your law.
Heb 8:8 But14 showing its fault,15 God16 says to them,17
“Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Heb 8:9 “It will not be like the covenant18 that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord.
Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put19 my laws in their minds20 and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.21
Heb 8:11 “And there will be no need at all22 for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest.23
Heb 8:12 “For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.”24
Heb 8:13 When he speaks of a new covenant,25 he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.26
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!
Rom 11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?25
Rom 11:35 Or who has first given to God,26
that God27 needs to repay him?28
Also, true Christians are not suppose to think for themselves but must instead feed on the word of God to get their wisdom. Are they not likened to sheep in scripture.
Joh 10:26 But you refuse to believe because you are not my sheep.
Joh 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give67 them eternal life, and they will never perish;68 no one will snatch69 them from my hand.
Its called submitting ourselves to the will of God. Why is this concept foreign to you? Do you not understand that the fall caused rebellion against God’s will and that the submission to God’s will reconciles us to Him?
December 28, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Jason said, “Your comments have really shown support for Truelogic’s premise that most Christians can’t think for themselves. Thanks for the help…”
*****
Why do you, a Christian, support an unbeliever…”saying Thanks for the help” as if I really did prove what you claim.
2Co 6:14 Do not become partners21 with those who do not believe, for what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?
You claim I am guilty of supporting truelogic’s premise. I thought the premise was that mankind does not have free will. I have stated over and over that mankind actually does have free will which clearly does not support this premise. We can either choose to follow Christ or not. And even after we make our decision to follow, we continue to do so by our free will. Scripture confirms this in the following passages:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance, since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8 and holding him up to contempt.
Jas 5:19 My brothers and sisters,21 if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back,
Jas 5:20 he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path22 will save that person’s23 soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Apparently Christians can fall away and turn their backs to God.
If it was never according to our free will, how can we be found guilty of anything and if he does find us guilty how does God remain just and loving in His character. What you create now are inconsistencies in God’s character. But God’s character does not change due to circumstance. OR one the flip side if you declare God is not really loving or just, then you cause inconsistencies and irreconcilable differences and contradictions to occur in the interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.
Jas 1:17 All generous giving and every perfect gift17 is from above, coming down18 from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change.1
December 29, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Hischild, here is one of your problems. It should never be about supporting a believer or a non-believer. It should be about what is right and what is wrong, what is correct and what is not. What is logical and what is NOT logical. What is supported by evidence and what is NOT supported about evidence. You comment sounds to me like the many racists I have heard in my life. things like, why do you, a white boy, support the blacks.
According to the bible, mankind doesn’t have free will. what don’t you understand if god says “God operates all in all” and “yet ALL is of God” and “men’s steps are not of himself” and “if evil happens, have i not done it?” ….then there is no room for free will according to your God. What you think is free will is no different than a computer making decision based on the program it was given. that would be an example of the “free will” you have from the bible. you have no more free will to make your own decision than a computer running a program.
now, i know in my life i do have free will but I do not buy the story of the bible. I only give you what the bible states and if that is the word of God then you have NO free will. how can one claim to be a christian and not have a great desire to understand the written word of their God. NOT take time to understand the hebrew and greek translations? you just believe what you are told. Just like the terrorist of 9/11 believed they were doing what they did for their God and eternal rewards.
you stated “we can either choose to follow christ or not”. Really? You keep making so many claims that are completely contradicting the “word of god” or are just plan lies. please stop lying and be honest with yourself. your ego will be fine.
“You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…” (John 15:16).
It is NOT up to you. You are not all powerful. God is the one claimed to be ALL powerful and it is all UP TO HIM.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘faith’] not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).
You can boast about your “own” faith but if you had faith, it would be a gift from God. NOTHING to do with free will.
“NO MAN CAN COME TO ME [by his own free will choice] except the Father which has sent me DRAW HIM [Greek: DRAG HIM] and I WILL raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).
NOT EVEN YOU “hischild” you have to be dragged by the “father”. NOT YOUR CHOICE.
“There is NONE that seeks after God” (Rom. 3:11b). That NONE includes YOU! Unless you think the bible is NOT the world of God? Or unless you think you are above God. Which is it?
“For it is GOD which works IN you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
Do you think God does NOT work in you to WILL and to DO of HIS pleasure? Are you really above God? Because you seem to think you are in your statements. The bible disagrees with everything you say and you continue to just spew what you have been taught to believe. You don’t even care about what the bible actually states because your ego is too big and you just want to believe mommy and daddy never lied to you or the church always told you exactly the truth and it is all correct.
wake up.
December 28, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Besides, being a true Christian isn’t about logic or intelligence or mastery of scripture, but rather faith, trust and obedience.
1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent.”21
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law?22 Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach about a crucified Christ,23 a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.
1Co 1:24 But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom,24 and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.25
1Co 1:26 Think about the circumstances of your call,26 brothers and sisters.27 Not many were wise by human standards,28 not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position.29
1Co 1:27 But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong.
1Co 1:28 God chose30 what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing, to set aside what is regarded as something,
1Co 1:29 so that no one can boast in his presence.
1Co 1:30 He is the reason you have a relationship with Christ Jesus,31 who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”32
There is only one way to the true God of the universe – not many ways as the world view claims. If you are a true Christian then you fully understand and believe 100% in the following verse:
Joh 14:6 Jesus replied,13 “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.14 No one comes to the Father except through me.
Therefore, Jesus is the only way the true God has provided mankind to escape eternal condemnation in fiery hell.
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Peace to all who will accept it. I pray that my God, the true God and originator of life, may have patience with you and open your hearts to the truth so that you also may partake in His goodness and cross over from death into everlasting life.
December 29, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Oh, so prove being a true christian is what you say it is. Go ahead. Oh yeah, you can’t, just like you can’t prove Jesus is a God or that their is an eternal fire. FACT is, you don’t even know scripture enough to understand the use of the word eternal in the bible.
Prove your God is the true God and that any other God is a false God. Yet another claim you can NOT prove. Prove your version of God originated life….you can NOT. It is sad when people just make claims all their life and can not back them up. It is a clear sign that you have been brainwashed. Don’t feel bad, those guys that crashed planes into buildings on 9/11 believed completely in their God as well. They believe they will receive 72 virgins just as much as you believe you will get eternal life. Like you, NONE of them could prove anything they claimed. ironic, isn’t it?
December 31, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Truelogic said, “…just like you can’t prove Jesus is a God”
In fact Jesus in not just a God, but He is the God of the Bible, the originator of life.
If by prove you mean from a biblical standpoint, here are a set of simple, easy to understand verses that prove Jesus is God.
Old Testament Verse:
Hos 13:4 But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. Therefore, you must not acknowledge any God but me; except me there is no Savior.
[except me there is no Savior]
Old Testament Verse:
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. (ESV)
[besides me there is no savior]
Now watch what happens…
New Testament Verse:
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (ESV)
[Jesus Christ the Lord, a Savior, is born in Bethlehem; and not just a Savior, but the Savior, the only Savior, because the Old Testament scripture states that there is only one Savior]
So in order for these verses not to contradict one another, you MUST conclude that Jesus is God.
For God is not the author of confusion, but rather mankind is. This is why I have given you scriptural proof that unless you are spiritual you are not able to understand the truth. You will only come up with a version of the truth (which is of course false). It is no surprise that the modern day Christian churches spin a plethora of versions of the truth. There are thousands and thousands of denominations in the USA alone. Don’t deceive yourselves, there is only one truth and it can only be discerned through spiritual means. This is the only way according to the Bible.
1Jn 2:27 Now as for you, the anointing57 that you received from him58 resides59 in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as his60 anointing teaches you about all things, it is true and is not a lie. Just as61 it62 has taught you, you reside63 in him. (NET)
But then again, you can also look at John 1 for a clear understanding that Jesus is God incarnate.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning1 was the Word, and the Word was with God,2 and the Word was fully God.3
Joh 1:2 The Word4 was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were created5 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created6 that has been created.7
Joh 1:4 In him was life,8 and the life was the light of mankind.9
Joh 1:5 And the light shines on10 in the darkness,11 but12 the darkness has not mastered it.13
Joh 1:6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John.14
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness15 to testify16 about the light, so that everyone17 might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify18 about the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, who gives light to everyone,19 was coming into the world.20
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was created21 by him, but22 the world did not recognize23 him.
Joh 1:11 He came to what was his own,24 but25 his own people26 did not receive him.27
Joh 1:12 But to all who have received him — those who believe in his name28 — he has given the right to become God’s children
Joh 1:13 — children not born29 by human parents30 or by human desire31 or a husband’s32 decision,33 but by God.
Joh 1:14 Now34 the Word became flesh35 and took up residence36 among us. We37 saw his glory — the glory of the one and only,38 full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.
Joh 1:15 John39 testified40 about him and shouted out,41 “This one was the one about whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is greater than I am,42 because he existed before me.’ ”
Joh 1:16 For we have all received from his fullness one gracious gift after another.43
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but44 grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only one,45 himself God, who is in closest fellowship with46 the Father, has made God47 known.48
[the Word was fully God; ... and all things were created by Him [Word=Jesus] and apart from Him [Jesus] not one thing was created…He was in the world and the world was created by Him, but the world did not recognize Him…He came to His own people but they did not receive Him…now the Word [Jesus=God] became flesh and took up residence among them]
December 31, 2008 at 2:37 pm
I see you are trying and if you are intelligent you realize that quoting from the bible is no more proof of your version of god than me pointing to the writing of darwin is the proof of evolution. I know you already realize it but you are not grasping for anything that might justify your claims or belief. this is to be expected. you have NOTHING so you quote the bible. If i was muslim, i could quote the holy book and claim, there is my proof that my good is real. tell me you are know better. please
December 31, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Apparently you are not spiritual as you don’t understand scripture. But like you always seem to believe, it is you that has the power to judge what i can and cannot do and apparently God hasn’t that ability. Like I stated, God can send lying spirits to anyone and you would never know if he did it or not. You would believe you are right because God does things for his purpose and according to his will. So prove you are not being deceived by God and that I am not being revealed the truth by God. FACT, you can’t. You assume it is the special YOU that must have the truth. Note. There are MANY that believe like you. NOTE. there are FEW like me. What did god say about the many and the few?
Do you know how FEW the bible is speaking of? It is speaking of VERY VERY few and no where NEAR the millions that claim to be Christian. Yeah, we know you think you are one of the few but you have clearly shown you are the MANY. Think about it.
December 31, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Truelogic said, “FACT is, you don’t even know scripture enough to understand the use of the word eternal in the bible.”
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Reasoning 101: To be a proven fact it must be supportable through evidence. Since you don’t know anything about me I am not sure how you can logically conclude any FACTS about me. Statements such as these should highlight to a reasonable person reading this blog your serious inability to debate objectively within an acceptable and appropriately defined context and should cause them to question your overall credibility.
I on the other hand have in almost all responses to you, provided clear, concise scriptural evidence supporting my views and conclusions regarding the concept of Free Will within the context of the Bible.
December 31, 2008 at 3:00 pm
The bible is NOT evidence any more than Drawin’s books are evidence evolution is true. Notice my first 4 posts on my blog and the clear, exact scriptures that prove Evil is of God and All things are of God. That you have no free will according to the bible and that book of revelations is NOT literal but instead symbolic. Even the angel make it clear in chapter one and verse one of revelation. You provide evidence supporting YOUR views. I provide scriptural FACTS that support what I say about free will is true. It seems it is you against God. I only tell it like it is stated.
What kind of an eternal example would that be for those who are saved? Does God really teach us to “train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it” (Prov. 22:6), but that God Himself is incapable of training His children in the way that they should go and that most of them WILL DEPART FROM IT? Think about it if you dare.
“Of how much more punishment [Gk: timoria], suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:29).
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of “eternal” punishment, and it is the ONLY SCRIPTURE IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT that uses the word “punishment” with reference to punishing sinners!
There are three other places in the KJV that the word “punish” or “punished” is used correctly. They are Acts 4:21; 22:5; and 26:11 where it Saul (later Paul) is punishing not sinners, but members of the church, the followers of Christ.
II Thes. 1:9 should be translated, “eonian extermination” and not “punished … everlasting.”
II Peter 2:4 & 9 should both be “chastening” as it is the same Greek word kolazo and not timoria which means punish.
The KJV uses “punished” in verse nine, which should be “chasten,” and ironically it doesn’t even translate the Greek word kolazo (chasten) in verse four — the KJV translators left it out completely. I suppose the translators thought that it was redundant to say, “chastening judging.” But then again, they didn’t bother to look at II Cor. 2:6 which should read “rebuke” (another Greek word, epitimia), not “punish.”
There is so much that goes against what you actually would believe but you don’t bother to actually read the bible. I may not know you but maybe my God has revealed you to me. I can make that claim just as you can make your claims that your God is real. Therefore it is true? Give me a break. Your arguments are silly and you have yet to provide any evidence to prove your God. The problem is that if you claim the bible is the word of God, then I can use it to prove to you what he actually stated according to scripture. So if it is truly the word of God then your God is nothing like you speak. No skin off my back how you want to believe.
By the way, even among those who love the doctrine of eternal torment, no Scripture in the Old Testament has ever been brought forth which even vaguely defends their theory.
For all those who have never heard the real Gospel of God, here it is:
“How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publish peace; that brings GOOD TIDINGS [that means gospel] of GOOD [not like Bush and the Christian Party of Family Values that bring infinite acts of eternal terrorism], that publishes SALVATION [not DAMNATION] … The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of ALL THE NATIONS [that’s the whole world], and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH [that’s everyone] SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD” (Isa. 52:7 & 10).
Wow…again, a scripture that supports what I have stated about ALL men will be saved. I guess I should include that in my original post. thanks for helping me realize I didn’t use it. I am wondering if most of my readers have ever even heard of this verse or knew that it is in their Bibles.
Now I am aware of the many Scriptures that speak of death, destruction, and perishing of wicked people. And we won’t forget the one Scripture with regards to punishment. All those Scriptures are true. They are not, however, God’s final judgment on the wicked. The final judgments of God will bring salvation to all and there are no scriptures that contradict those saving declarations of Almighty God. God has declared it; He has spoken it; His Word has gone forth: He has willed –
“Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2:4).
Here then is a declaration of God from His own inspired Word. It is found in all Bibles and in all languages on earth for all to see and believe. But the Church (Christians) have tried to destroy this declaration and make it of no effect in the minds of millions and millions of people around the world. They teach that this verse and declaration of Almighty God WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN! Well, be it known, that they LIE According to the bible.
Amazing, isn’t it? I will write about the word eternal in a future post as it is clear you don’t understand the book of revelation.
December 31, 2008 at 3:06 pm
You do realize that Greek word Aionios NEVER means eternal…don’t you? Of course you didn’t but I gave you that little bit of information. My God apparently wanted me to help you with some Knowledge. Now go through the bible and find how it is used to prove it to yourself. Or, you can wait for me to teach you that as well.
January 1, 2009 at 9:10 am
Truelogic said, “I see you are trying and if you are intelligent you realize that quoting from the bible is no more proof of your version of god than me pointing to the writing of darwin is the proof of evolution.”
I am sorry but I thought this blog was about proving that free will is not biblical. So when you argue your case FROM THE BIBLE, I also present my case FROM THE BIBLE. When did the blog change to proving that God exists? When you started arguing your case from the Bible, you automatically accepted the Bible as a credible source (you are using its scripture and declaring that it proves there is no free will). I on the other hand am using scripture also and declaring that it collectively says there is free will. How do your readers know whether or not you are interpreting scripture for them correctly? If you are not, then everything about your conclusions about free will is a lie.
Here is my case that supports I have a greater chance of interpreting the Bible correctly then you.
1. When you declare a premise like “Free will does not exist in the Bible”, you automatically acknowledge the Bible as a credible source because you use it to establish your arguments. Once you use the Bible and what is written in it as “proof” (as you have stated many times), you are treating the source as credible to support your conclusions. How can you then say the Bible is false. That would logically also declare the Bible is false and not credible in supporting your own conclusions. Then in the blog you acknowledge the fact that you personally believe that you have free will in this world. I am a Christian and I also know that I have free will in this world. I also have shown you many Bible verses that make it impossible for you to reconcile them to your conclusions about free will (that is, you now have verses that contradict your conclusion or interpretation) The evidence that you have interpreted scripture incorrectly is that verses begin to contradict one another. The truth does not contradict itself, only lies contradict. When you have reconciled all verses (without contradiction) in the Bible, you have the truth. You can see that such a task is an enormous task. The Bible is a big book with a lot of verses to consider. Some people study the Bible all their lives and still can’t figure it out.
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2. I am a Christian, you are not (you stated this in your blog). Unbelievers are NOT spiritual and therefore cannot discern correctly those things that are spiritually discernible. The Bible is spiritual because it is the inspired word of God written and preserved over the ages by Saints led by God’s Holy Spirit. The Bible is the invisible God’s revelation of Himself to mankind and therefore it must be spiritual, because God Himself is.
1Co 2:13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.8
1Co 2:14 The unbeliever9 does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The one who is spiritual discerns10 all things, yet he himself is understood11 by no one.
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3. Human wisdom takes no part in interpreting scripture correctly. You wish to use your human logic to interpret it. This is what the Bible says about human wisdom:
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said,44 “I praise45 you, Father, Lord46 of heaven and earth, because47 you have hidden these things from the wise48 and intelligent, and revealed them to little children [figuratively a simple minded person]
1Co 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1Co 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent.”21
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching.
1Co 1:26 Think about the circumstances of your call,26 brothers and sisters.27 Not many were wise by human standards,28 not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position.29 1Co 1:27 But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks weak to shame the strong.1Co 1:28 God chose30 what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing, to set aside what is regarded as something,1Co 1:29 so that no one can boast in his presence.
January 1, 2009 at 9:56 am
You are like a baby grasshopper. If i use the bible that doesn’t mean it is a credible resource. You just keep making things up to support your own view without any objectivity. But i understand, you are threatened with eternal punishment if you do not do what you are told. You must and are required to believe it and have no choice. What a sad life.
show me where the scripture says that you can do anything without God? You will not find it. Show me where scripture says “yet NOT all of God” or that tells us “god DOESN”T operate all in all”. you take scriptures and pretend they somehow give you free moral agency.
Notice the many scriptures i have put in the first 4 posts at the top of my page. notice that each of those posts demonstrate a logic and agreement with the other. you list scriptures and don’t even say how they give you free will. I list scripture and then provide the logic that shows it would be impossible to have free will.
God is the potter and you are the clay. what don’t you get about it. yet all is of god, what don’t you get about the word of all. Everything is of him. what don’t you get about everything. god operates all in all. what don’t you get about the word operate (controls the function) and ALL in ALL? Men’s steps are NOT of himself…what don’t you get about it. all is according to the Will of God…..NOT the will of men. what don’t you get.
i have no problem with you using the bible to attempt to prove that it says you have free will. however, you can not use the bible to prove God. just like you can not use fairy tales to prove mother goose. you can use fairy tales to prove what the book of fairy tales is saying..no problem.
So, you post scriptures but they do not say you have free will or free moral agency. Now, if you did, they would contradict the MANY scripture i have provided and more that I can provide that show you do not. God said his word doesn’t contradict and you apparently want to prove it does. God said there is some great punishment for those that make his word contradict.
Show me which verses i provided that contradict. I have looked at them many times and apparently, they all agree. they all make logical sense.
Like i stated, you think you know and i provided scriptures that you don’t and that say you can be deceived. You just believe what you want and makeup all the rest.
I guess God doesn’t want you to know the truth at this time. Each of the 4 posts at the top of my blog provide scriptural proof of the things i have stated and each of them agree with the other. NO contradiction.
YOu need to learn to post a scripture and then tell me how that proves there is free will. I do it with all the scriptures when i say you have no free will. you just chose to ignore them. you list scripture and then say nothing about how it proves your point.
peace
January 1, 2009 at 9:16 am
Truelogic said, “Apparently you are not spiritual as you don’t understand scripture. But like you always seem to believe, it is you that has the power to judge what i can and cannot do and apparently God hasn’t that ability.”
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It is God’s words that judge you. I am merely the messenger that points out scripture to you. If scripture says only believers can interpret spiritual things (Bible included), then it is what God said not I, but God. Scripture was not written by me, but by God. Therefore how can I be the judge as you claim?
January 1, 2009 at 9:43 am
HisChild apparently you are not getting anything I stated. You can say I am not spiritual and don’t understand scripture but you have not proof of that. Just like i can say EXACTLY the same thing about you. You are correct, God doesn’t have the ability to judge. God is a myth. Zues was a myth, mythra was a mith and all the others. NONE of them were proven either.
If the bible is correct, then God will judge you as well. You pretend to be christian and yet you come here all the time while children are dying for lack of food, water and medication. bloggin is more important for you, i guess.
Clearly God believes he is the potter but Christian think he doesn’t have this power.
“As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE” (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b)
Yet so many try to tell me they understand God and what God intends or wants us to do and yet God seems to say differently. Think about it and you will can then maybe find out why this is stated in the Bible. I give so many hints and yet not one seems to understand.
“Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29)
You seem to think God will fail to take away the sins and people are going to be tortured in fire. Yet you have NO proof of any of that either.
Logic tells me that if God takes away the sins of the world, which would include my sins then I am sin free and again this scripture agrees with the others.
“And God shall wipe away ALL TEARS from their eyes and there shall be NO MORE DEATH [not a first death, nor a second death, nor a spiritual death, nor any ‘death’ whatsoever, ‘the last enemy being ABOLISHED isDEATH,’ (I Cor. 15:26)], neither SORROW, nor CRYING, neither shall there be a ANY MORE PAIN: for the former things ARE PASSED AWAY“ (Rev. 21:4)
How can there be eternal torture if there is no more pain?
“And He that sat upon the throne said, ‘BEHOLD! I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW“(Verse 5)!
You seem to think he will not make all things new. Again, like you have consistently done, you disagree with the word of God. Funny thing, isn’t it.
The bible speaks of the many pretending to be of Christ or christians and how they are false. Only the few “elect” are the special ones. yeah, you think you are the few elect out of millions of other Christians. They all think they are. Yet you are here blogging. Just like Jesus would do. Wow…pathetic.
January 1, 2009 at 10:56 am
Truelogic said, “You logic is greatly flawed. “EVERY tongue SHALL confess that Christ is Lord”. What happens if I confess to God that jesus christ is lord? that is correct, I will be saved. Apparently, the bible tells us this WILL happen.”
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Here is the original Old Testament Scripture that the New Testament quotes from:
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
Isa 45:24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
Isa 45:25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.”
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Here are the New Testament verses that quote the Old Testament verse above:
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow — in heaven and on earth and under the earth —Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
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These are all the same verses. In conclusion we can see that there is only one Savior, God. Therefore Jesus=God and every tongue shall confess to God (Jesus)
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First of all, there are three Keys in understanding this scripture:
1. WHEN will it take place. WHEN will every tongue confess that Christ is Lord. I will show you why?
2. WHY every tongue will confess Christ is Lord.
3. IS SALVATION MENTIONED AND HOW IS IT MENTIONED. It does not talk about universal salvation for all. The Old Testament verses are the only ones that mention the idea of salvation and they present SALVATION as an invitation to all “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth!” It does not say God saved them all, [unconditionally] all the ends of the earth. It said turn to me [conditional] and I will save you”
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But before I show you why, truelogic, I disagree with your inference, let us see how people are Biblically saved:
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Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
[the one who endures in the truth will be saved]
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Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved19 through faith,20 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[we are saved through faith. The Bible is clear on this matter. It is only by faith that we can be saved. But, what is faith?]
Faith is:
2Co 5:7 for we live12 by faith, not by sight.
[believing in something we cannot see]
Heb 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds3 were set in order at God’s command,4 so that the visible has its origin in the invisible.5
[faith is being convinced of what we do not see as being reality]
Heb 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
[faith causes us to believe God exists without actually seeing Him or being able to prove His existence]
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Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,24 if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith25 save him?26
Jas 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; well and good.31 Even the demons believe that — and tremble with fear.32
Jas 2:20 But would you like evidence,33 you empty fellow,34 that faith without works is useless?35
Jas 2:22 You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.Jas 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
[the evidence of true saving faith is that it produces good works]
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So here is the recap on how one is Biblically saved. We can only be saved by faith. Faith is believing in something we cannot see. Faith is being convinced of what we do not see as being reality. Faith causes us to believe God exists without actually seeing Him or being able to prove His existence. We must endure in the truth. That is we must have lasting faith, it must continue to the end (until we die), And finally our faith must produce good works. When our faith produces good works, it is the evidence that proves that we have genuine saving faith.
So in the context of the scriptural evidence I have provided, are you saved by merely confessing, simply saying you believe in Jesus, or are you saved by living out the faith. The book of James says even the demons believe and tremble with fear. But the Bible clearly states that demons will not be saved.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; well and good.31 Even the demons believe that — and tremble with fear.32
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned,15 but threw them into hell16 and locked them up17 in chains18 in utter darkness,19 to be kept until the judgment,
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Now back to the three keys.
SALVATION:
1. The Bible talks about the requisites to be saved. (I have shown you some passages above regarding the subject matter) The Bible also talks about only a few will be saved.
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of 44 the ungodly and sinners? 45
Mat 7:14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
[according to scripture, believers are barely saved and there numbers are few. So when truelogic concludes that everyone will be saved, he contradicts other scripture like the ones above. Yet again, truelogic makes an inference which the scripture he is referring to does not specifically state. He concludes that scripture says that everyone will be saved. But the scripture he has selected to prove this does not specifically state this at all. In contrast the scripture I have selected specifically does say that few will be saved. I do not have to draw on an inference here. It says it clearly.]
WHY
The Old Testament scripture tells you the answer. They will be ashamed and cower before the Lord.
`…to him shall come and be ASHAMED all who were incensed against him.` (ESV)
`All who are angry at him will COWER before him.60` (NET)
WHEN
Why will those who did not believe be ashamed and cower before him. Because they see Him and believe. When will they see Him. They will see Him on judgment day. Every one that has ever lived on the earth will be there on judgment day. For scripture says every knee will bow. It does not say some knees will.. Every knee will bow… Therefore this occurrence can only take place on judgment day when the Bible says all will be judged.
Now again, I will address your salvation question at this point. We know that the Bible says you can only be saved through faith. We also know that faith is something you believe to be true without being able to see it. On judgment day everyone will see the true God. So they can no longer exercise faith. Faith is believing in something you cannot see. So truelogic your conclusion is incorrect when you say that your verse proves that everyone will be saved.
January 1, 2009 at 11:49 am
you are saved through faith “NOT OF YOURSELF” it is a gift of god. you don’t decide it out of your believed free will. if god doesn’t want you to be saved, you will not be. it is that simple. When they see god they will clearly have faith. If i don’t believe in santa but then i actually witness santa, i will have faith in him. but that doesn’t matter, you can NOT have faith of yourself. scripture makes it clear.
I don’t provide ONE verse to prove all will be saved. I provide many. they all agree and then when you add the other posts to that, it makes it clear why all are saved. because “yet all is of God”. God created evil and he appointed a time for every evil and good thing to happen. therefore, since it is all OF God by his very word, it would NOT be just to burn billions with fire for eternity (the christian version of the egyptian hell created long before christians took it from them).
notice, the scriptures i have provided do not need any special opinion or interpretation. they are perfectly clear. notice, you need to take scripture and give it your own opinion.
scriptures i have provided say it directly. “yet ALL is of God”. the word ALL explains it. then i back it up with several others and even give examples, like the disciples denying jesus when they stated they wouldn’t. Jesus said he could do NOTHING but for the father and he said to others they could do NOTHING but for the father. clearly, it is not up to you. but you think you can do something without the father.
I will be happy to provide you more on salvation as well as you are clearly confused by the brain washing from birth.
cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
superstition: excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings
According to scripture it appears you do not understand the “few”. that doesn’t mean that all will not be saved. read your bible as i will provide that in a future post as well.
like i stated, i can win many more minds to the truth than you can wish “souls” to your cult.
again, i have shown that you will come here and blog, spend your time and money to blog while children die and suffer. Just like jesus would do? Yet another hypocrite.
January 1, 2009 at 12:00 pm
EVERY MAN SAVED IN HIS OWN ORDER
I Cor. 15:20, 23, 24 presents us with the type and fulfillment of the three harvest festivals:
1.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS OF [the rest of the firstfruits awaiting resurrection in His presence] them that slept … But EVERY MAN [all mankind, the WHOLE human race] in his own ORDER: Christ the firstfruits…” (The Wave Sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits).
2.
“Afterward they that are Christ’s [those who are now saved] at His coming [the rest of the firstfruits that are sleeping and those alive waiting]. (The Firstfruits, the Spring Harvest).
3.
Then comes the END [The Fall Harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles]. “…and the feast of INGATHERING [of the Fall Harvest], which is in the END…” (Ex. 23:16). What did Jesus say would happen in “the end,” at the “end of the Feast,” “the last day,” “the last great day of the feast?” “In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER” (John 7:37-38).
THEN COMES THE END
I Cor. 15:24 says, “Then comes the END…” “The end” of what? Just what is it that “ends” in “the end?” Does the earth end? Does the universe end? Do we end? What ends in the end? “Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming [Gk: His presence]. Then comes THE END…” (II Cor. 15:24). Let’s look at a few verses before we come to “the end” in verse 24:
Verse 20:
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”
Comment: Contrary to popular teaching, there was no heavenly welcoming committee of men and women who became firstfruits BEFORE Christ became the FIRSTFRUIT. No, there were no saints welcoming Christ back to heaven. Christ taught:
“And NO MAN has ascended into heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13).
Jesus Christ was the FIRST. Ask your pastor if this verse really is true, that “NO MAN” has ascended into heaven. This would then mean that Lazarus and Abraham in the Rich man parable also were NOT IN HEAVEN as most teach that they were, wouldn’t it?
Among the very last few words that Christ uttered on this earth were these:
“I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the FIRST and the LAST” (Rev. 22:13).
So yes, Christ is the first of the firstfruits. He is the first of EVERYTHING, He is the very Creator; and He is the last, the end, the CONSUMMATION of God’s plan of universal salvation.
Ver. 21-22: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For AS in Adam ALL die, EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.”
Comment: First I want to show you that the word “alive” in this verse is a word that is used with reference to imparting immortality, and not just mortal life. The Greek word is zoopoieo, and it means to give life beyond the grasp of any future death. Notice how it is used in Rom. 8:11, “But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead [Christ was raised to immortality, not back to a mortal life] dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [zoopoieo] your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you.” So clearly God does not give “mortal” life to our “mortal” bodies, seeing that we already have mortal life. No, He imparts IMMORTALITY to us. And this is exactly what Paul tells us in I Cor. 15, “For this corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [spiritual], and this mortal [dying or dead body] must put on IMMORTALITY [Gk: DEATH-LESS-NESS]” (Verse 53). And to whom does Christ grant immortal “zoopoieo” life? Answer: “ALL.” The very same “all” who die in Adam are the very same “all” who are given life IN CHRIST.
It is also noteworthy that it is “…IN Christ ALL…” and is not restricted to only, “…ALL IN CHRIST…” as many have tried to twist this verse to mean. They say it is only all those who are “in” Christ. But that is not what this verse says. It says “in Christ ALL.” That is the order of words. This verse is not speaking of those just the “all believers” who are said to be “IN Christ.” No, this verse is speaking about the very same “in Adam ALL” who die become the very same “in Christ ALL” who are made alive. And although this particular verse does not say that “all” are now “IN Christ,” it does most definitely say that “in Christ,” the “ALL” shall be shall be “made alive.” “Made alive” does not prove they are “in” Christ or that they are “saved,” only that they have been given immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there is no Scripture that says they will eventually “ALL” be “IN” Christ, because there is:
“That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM” (Eph. 1:10).
Christ first raises ALL to immortal life. At a later date He gathers this same ALL into Himself. The “in Christ ALL” (I Cor. 15:22) then becomes the “ALL IN CHRIST” (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and earth will be ONE IN Christ! Simple, isn’t it. We can go on and on but the more I go the more I provide Scriptures that support the very clear statement that God WILL save ALL men.
January 1, 2009 at 12:16 pm
If I were to show you a Scripture that says God will NOT torture most of humanity in an eternal lake of fire, would you believe it? What if I showed you a dozen such Scriptures? What about two dozen? Let’s just try one and see how serious you are about believing the Scriptures. We cannot believe that God will save ALL mankind while, at the same time, torturing most of the mankind in an eternal lake of fire, now can we? Here then is just one profound and beautiful statement of Good News from God that virtually none of the Christian world teaches or believes:
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour: Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2:4).
Now I don’t mean to be continually picking on the World of Christendom, but understand that it is ONLY Christians (lead by Christian theologians, clergymen, pastors, and teachers) that teach the whole world that Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the Whole World (I Jn. 4:14), WILL NOT SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD. It is only THEY, who teach the world that this prophecy in I Tim. 2:4 will NEVER COME TO PASS. And so in being obedient to Titus 1:9, I expose them for their heresy. If atheists and pagans and heathens had a billion-dollar campaign to tell the world that I Tim. 2:4 will never come to pass, then I would expose them as well!
Understanding the colossal and far-reaching implications of such a verse, many translators have tried to water down this Scripture. People have told me personally many times that this verse doesn’t mean that God really “will” save all men, but that He only “desires,” “wants” “longs” and “wishes” that if only He could save all mankind, it would “please” Him. And I have four translations that use the words, “desires, wants, longs, and wishes” in this verse! NONE of which are a correct translation of this verse.
Consider for a moment if this verse had said in the original Greek manuscripts that, “God our Saviour Who desires and pleases that all men be saved.” Would such a translation open the door to possible failure as most contend? Is there a verse of Scripture somewhere that declares that God can’t have or bring about things for which He only desires or pleases? IS THERE? WHERE? SHOW ME? Before we can believe that God will actually and factually DO WHAT HE SAYS, is it necessary and mandatory that He say something like this: “I swear on a stack of Bibles that I absolutely, positively will do, accomplish, and carry out 100%, totally and completely……such and such.” So why make such unscriptural and stupid statements that if God only “desires or pleases” for something He can’t always have what He wants? After all, HE’S ONLY GOD!!!
Let’s now look at a few verses where “thelo” has to mean something that absolutely is going to be, rather than only wished for:
1. “I will [thelo] not send them away fasting…” (Matt. 15:28).
Jesus not only “desired” to not send them away, HE absolutely was not going to send them away famished.
2. “To whom our fathers would [thelo] not obey…” (Acts 7:39).
Is anyone so silly as to assert that Israel only “DESIRED” to disobey God, but maybe they really wouldn’t disobey?
3. “What will [thelo] this babbler [Paul] say?” (Acts 17:18).
Where these Greeks only interested in what Paul “desired” to say? If Paul would not actually say anything, but only “desire” to say something, then the Greeks would have to be mind-readers to know what Paul only “desired” to say, but maybe wouldn’t actually say audibly. No, they wanted to hear what Paul “would” say, not what maybe Paul “desired” to say.
4. “For I will [thelo] not see you now…” (I Cor. 16:7).
Was Paul really telling them that he had no “desire” to see them now? Of course not, he had a very strong desire to see them, but it just was not possible to see them now. Paul was clearly stating a physical hindrance to seeing them now rather than that he had NO EMOTIONAL DESIRE to see them now.
5. “For it is GOD which works in you both to will [thelo] and TO DO…” (Phil. 2:13).
When God’s Word adds “to DO” to the word “will/thelo,” it becomes a contradiction to say that the “will” part does not have to come to fruition. The “and TO DO” makes the “thelo/will” an absolute necessity rather than a mere wish.
6. “If any would [thelo] not work, either should he eat” (II Thes. 3:10).
Imagine Paul stating that if anyone has a ‘desire not to work” then he shouldn’t eat? Why that would include just about everyone, even those who do work. Most people in the world have no “DESIRE” to work when the alarm clock goes off, but they go to work anyway, because they know that is the only way they “will eat.”
7. “Yea, and shall that will [thelo] live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution” (II Tim. 3:12).
Can we even imagine Paul telling us that if we don’t actually, but only desire, to live godly in Jesus, we will, nevertheless, suffer persecution? Do people suffer persecution for what they “think or desire in their heart,” but don’t actually live out in their Christian walk? Absurd. “Thelo” will be fulfilled just as “thelemo” will be fulfilled.
Well, that’s seven, a good number to stop.
However, we know that God also stated “My DESIRES WILL BE DONE”. Now I can do this for every verse I have supplied but honestly, it is not needed. The Scriptures I provided are CLEAR, and need no excuses in order to explain. You provide Scriptures and then attempt to explain them in how they “must” be understood.
God is not obligated to even state whether he “wills” or “desires” something or not; all He has to do is SPEAK IT! God “SPOKE IT” in I Tim. 2:4; that’s all that is necessary for it to be accomplished. Are you so blind that you cannot see that it is blasphemy for mere mortals like you to diminish, disparage, degrade, and derogate the desires of your VERY GOD into watered-down, wish-washy, unattainable, weak wishes? The SAME GOD Who you claim created the entirety of the universe with its TWO HUNDRED BILLION GALAXIES EACH HAVING TWO HUNDRED BILLION STARS? And pious, carnal-minded theologians tell us that God WILL NOT accomplish His Own desires? ! Amazing!
Again, look at the other posts, notice how they all agree. No God that “Operates all in all” and “created the wicked for the evil day”, ” appointed a time for EVERY matter and EVERY event” can justly burn human flesh for eternity of suffering for all that HE has done. Ridiculous! Absurd!
More proof: We have shown that God doesn’t need to use a strong word such as “WILL” in order for His word to be fulfilled. But on those occasions when God uses a word such as “pleases,” “desires,” or “wills,” does not that word then contain within its meaning the possibility of negating God’s whole statement? No, absolutely NOT. If it merely “pleases” God to do something, it will be done just as assuredly as if He had “WILLED” it,
“So shall my WORD be that goes forth OUT OF MY MOUTH [just as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] it shall NOT return into me void, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, and it SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT” (Isaiah 55:11).
Here then is an opportunity for everyone to stand up and be counted. Is Isaiah 55:11 TRUE or is it FALSE or is it only sometimes true and sometimes false? The only negative in that verse is: “it shall NOT return into me void.” That is the only thing that can NOT happen in this verse. Notice God’s Word, “SHALL go forth…,” “SHALL accomplish that which I please…” and it “SHALL prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” This is not rocket science. This is 1, 2, 3, elementary deduction:
1. “ALL Scripture is given by inspiration [Greek: God-breathed—out of His mouth] of GOD…” (II Tim. 3:16).
2. I Timothy 2:4 IS ” SCRIPTURE”!
3. Therefore what God has inspired (breathed) in I Tim. 2:4, “SHALL go forth…,” It is has gone forth for nearly two thousand years and is going forth over the whole internet on this very printed page that you are reading. It also “SHALL accomplish that which I please…,” Is the word “will” weaker than the word “please”? And finally, it “SHALL prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”
So here we have just one more Scripture that says God, SHALL, SHALL, SHALL, while at the same time Traitors of the Truth tell us that God, shall NOT, shall NOT, shall NOT!
January 1, 2009 at 12:19 pm
More proof: I Tim. 2:4 says that God “wills” that all mankind be saved. What determines God’s will? Answer:
“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL of his own WILL” (Eph. 1:11).
Now then, will God’s “counsel” stand? Answer:
“There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the COUNSEL of the LORD, that SHALL STAND” (Prov. 19:21).
Will God’s “will” be done both in the heavens and on the earth? YES:
“Our Father Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE in earth, as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10).
More proof: When God speaks something, is He so weak and incapable as mortal men who make great boasts and are unable to accomplish their boast?
“God is NOT a man, that He should LIE [do we think God LIES when He says that He WILL save all mankind in I Tim. 2:4?]; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not DO IT? Or has He spoken [as in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places], and shall He not MAKE IT GOOD?” (Numbers 23:19).
Well? Those of you who contend with your Maker: “Hath God SAID” in I Tim. 2:4 that He “WILL have all men to be saved?” Well then, “SHALL HE NOT DO IT?” (Num. 23:19). Has “He [God] SPOKEN” in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places, that He “…WILL have all men to be saved?” Well then, “…shall He NOT MAKE IT GOOD?” (Num. 23:19).
More proof:
“…Let God be TRUE [Who says He "WILL save ALL MANKIND"], but every man a LIAR [who says He WILL NOT "save ALL MANKIND"]!
More proof:
“Remember the former things of old: for I am GOD, and there is none else; I am GOD, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel SHALL STAND, and WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else]:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east [Cyrus?], the man that executes my counsel [just as the king of Assyria] from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS [as also in saving all mankind]; I have PURPOSED IT [as also in saving all mankind] I WILL ALSO DO IT” (Isaiah 46:9-11).
God says, “I WILL DO IT,” and He will also do EVERYTHING ELSE that He has , said, declared, spoken, desired, counseled, willed, decreed, or pleased in His Word!
By the way, God NEVER, EVER “wishes” or “hopes” for ANYTHING! He “desires” things that absolutely are certain to come about, but God never wishes or hopes for things that may or may not come about! The very thought of God “hoping” for something, blasphemes His sovereignty, if he were real at all. You blaspheme your God on a regular basis.
January 1, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Imagine if I Tim. 2:3-4 said that “God will NOT save all men,” and then I would try to argue (using the same stupid scholarship as theologians use) that this verse doesn’t really mean that God will NOT save all men, but that it means He only “DESIRES” that all men “NOT” be saved when in reality they WILL all be saved, even if God were to say He “will NOT” save all men. YOU would try to laugh me to scorn over such inane reasoning? OF COURSE YOU WOULD! YOU KNOW YOU WOULD. Well, guess what? The word “NOT” is NOT in this verse. So God really “WILL save ALL men!” This is how foolish you behave with your pre-programed mind. I am sorry, your Mommy and Daddy have lied to you. I am sorry your Church lies to you about your myth. Don’t take it too hard, it is just a myth.
Does anyone think that the word “HYPOCRISY” is too strong to describe the way God’s word is slanderously perverted to maintain such evil doctrines as eternal torment in a lake of fire for those whom theologians say God won’t save even though God says He WILL save them?
Do you still believe that the “lake of fire” contradicts I Tim. 2:4, and that when God says He WILL save all men, what He really means is that He will NOT save all men, but will rather torture MOST men for all eternity in a lake of real fire? Is that what you still believe?
Let’s not neglect the first part of the sentence which begins in verse 3 of I Tim. 2:
“For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour…”
That God will “have ALL men to be saved” is both GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in God’s sight. These verses do NOT say: “For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL NOT have all men to be saved, and WILL NOT have all men come unto the knowledge of the truth” now does it? Theologians tell us that the reality of this Scripture is that all men WILL NOT come into a knowledge of the truth and that all men WILL NOT be saved. THAT they tell us is the reality and truth of the Scriptures.
Now then, if the reality is that all men WILL NOT BE SAVED, but rather most men will be tortured in a literal lake of fire for all eternity, I ask: Is this “GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our SAVIOUR? Again I ask: Is it “GOOD and ACCEPTABLE” that most of humanity be tortured for all eternity? If it is “GOOD and ACCEPTABLE” that God DOES save all mankind, then it CANNOT also be “GOOD and ACCEPTABLE” that God DOES NOT save all mankind! Am I going too fast for anyone?
I believe that our Christian friends have been once more painted into their little theological corner from which the only way out is repentance!
God says in I Tim. 2:3 that it is “good and acceptable” that all men come to a knowledge of the truth and that all men be saved. This is a fact. This is not debatable. We know for sure the answer to that question. However, theologians tell us that most men (and women and teens) will be tortured in a lake of fire for all eternity, so they will NOT all be saved. Hence my next question: Is it “good and acceptable” in the sight of God our Saviour that most of humanity be tortured in a literal lake of fire for all eternity?
If we say: “Yes,” we blaspheme!
If we say: “No,” then God is compelled to do what IS “good and acceptable!”
Does anyone have a third alternative to this question? Do we really believe the Scriptures?
Now that is basically putting the logic behind ONE Scripture. Shall I do it for all of them? I have already put most of this down in my notes. I can copy and paste the logic and explanation behind many of the Scriptures I post. Honestly, you are so foolish to DENY what God stated clearly. Honestly, you know it is all very clear and your attempts to twist it could only be described as Deceiving and DEVIL like.
If you wish to continue to threaten people with eternal punishment by fire then that is your choice. Your myth. Like I stated many times, I am VERY successful in exposing the lies that people like you spew. Again, it is that simple.
January 1, 2009 at 11:12 am
Truelogic said, “You do realize that Greek word Aionios NEVER means eternal…don’t you? Of course you didn’t but I gave you that little bit of information. My God apparently wanted me to help you with some Knowledge. Now go through the bible and find how it is used to prove it to yourself. Or, you can wait for me to teach you that as well.”
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I am quite capable of researching and studying the meaning of Greek and Hebrew words. But, here is the reason why I will not debate you at that level, truelogic.
2Ti 2:14 Remind people24 of these things and solemnly charge them25 before the Lord26 not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen.27
[I am not going to wrangle over words with you, because it is of no benefit; it just brings ruin [and confusion] on those who listen]
Secondly, I believe that God is in full control over His own Bible (His Revelation to mankind). If He wants the bible to be inerrant, then He would have provided the translators with wisdom so that their interpretation of the Greek and Hebrew words into English was perfect without any loss of meaning. I have over a dozen Bible translations in my library. Amazingly they all read consistent in meaning.
January 1, 2009 at 11:37 am
I am sure you will not want to discuss the greek and hebrew words even though the bible is from original greek and hebrew. Clearly, you don’t want the truth to be known but you want YOUR version to be believed. Like the literal burning of flesh for eternity which is NOT scriptural and I prove a lie. You don’t want to discuss the word hell in the bible either, do you? Why? One, you will need to take time to educate yourself and two, you will clearly be exposed as is the lie of your interpretation of the bible. It is that simple. To those that read my posts they can see how clear and logical it is. I get tons of email regarding those 4 posts and the pamphlets I leave for many around various cities I visit. I even have emails from Christians thanking me for showing them the wisdom and truth of Scripture.
It is this simple, for example. You praise and worship someone that Murdered Babies through Torture. You call him moral, love, merciful, compassionate, forgiving and many other positive words. Yet he MURDERED babies and the unborn child (abortion) in his slow torturous flood. Yeah, these babies and the unborn suffered and died for the sins of others. You call that God moral? Yes, you do. Now the logic is pretty simple to understand as are the posts I have provided at the top of my blog to discuss Evil of God, Symbolic Meaning of the Book of Revelations, ALL men are saved and You have No free will according to scripture. Logic tells me that Murder by Torture is NEVER moral, Never love, Never merciful, Never compassionate and you do some great mental gymnastics to claim that it is ok because your version of God is real and has the right to create beings that he then tortures…with love. A father has a child and he then drowns the child to death…slowly and then that same father PROMISES (according to christians) to torture billions to include children with fire for eternity. You call that God moral and love? Yes you do.
Hitler could have given his life to Jesus just before he died. By your Christian logic, he is saved and will go to heaven and live with God and yet a child that decided to not believe (mind you, the child never harmed anyone) will be tortured for eternity. yeah, that kind of logic completely exposes your religion.
I found a couple of youtube videos that even play it all out even more logically than I could in words and it is getting several hits as well. I am reaching 10’s of thousands a year and helping many of them get free of your religious lies. You likely don’t convert but one person a year..if you are luckly. I know as I used to be misinformed like you. Now i am FREE!
You stated you believe God is in full control over his own bible. Yet you don’t think he is in full control of all, like you. Yet god said: “God operates all in all” Operates means to CONTROL the FUNCTION! Again, logical and clear understanding. You want to claim that God does NOT operate all in all and that is what you say when you claim you have free will. YOU contradict his word and reject his words. Why? Maybe because like the bible, you put yourself above God. Logically, that could be one reason.
You clearly have not read your bibles if you think they are consistent in meaning. Would you like me to teach you a few easy ones? I will be happy to make a quick post to expose yet another lie you are telling. In fact, I will do it soon. As a matter of FACT the Church itself used to write in the margins of the Bible and point out the mistakes and admit mis-interpretation or even out right lies. Seems you don’t have much of a vast collection or you don’t care to read them. As usual I will have no problem exposing your lies. Amazingly, you continue to stick your foot in your mouth and Amazingly wrong only because you are not objective or honest.
Clearly, you don’t want to wrangler over words with me as you WILL be exposed for what you are. I could say you are deceiving like your father Satan plans but I don’t believe Satan is real so that would be a lie. But if I believed in the myth, you would fit exactly what the bible tells about false messengers pretending to follow christ. You even think you are but you are being deceived by God or Satan if I was to actually believe scripture.
I will get you the information on how the bibles are NOT consistent in meaning. I can even show you how a single bible is NOT consistent in meaning. Amazingly.
January 1, 2009 at 12:05 pm
When I present the really powerful and spiritual Scriptures to orthodox Christians, they invariably will either disagree with the verse or try to contradict it with another Scripture! I present a Scripture to prove a vital point, my opposer then presents another verse, which he says proves my Scripture wrong. In other words, he thinks he has found a Scripture that contradicts my Scripture, which only proves that this person believes the Bible is a book of CONTRADICTING SCRIPTURES! Unbelievable! Notice, how clear the Scriptures I have presented communicate the point. Example: “Yet ALL is of God” and “God OPERATES all in all” and “men’s steps are not of themselves” and “if evil happens, have I (god) not done it” and many more that you can find in the top 4 posts on my blog. There is NO special interpretation in reading most of them. Yet notice those that disagree with those Scriptures. They provide Scriptures that they then need to explain and justify based on their OPINION. Amazing.
January 1, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Truelogic said, “you are saved through faith “NOT OF YOURSELF” it is a gift of god.”
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(KJV+) ForG1063 by graceG5485 areG2075 ye savedG4982 throughG1223 faith;G4102 andG2532 thatG5124 notG3756 ofG1537 yourselves:G5216 it is theG3588 giftG1435 of God:G2316
This verse is saying that Grace [aka Mercy] (Salvation) is not of yourselves: it is a gift from God. It is saying no one can earn their way into heaven. It also says that this Salvation (Gift from God) is possible through faith and faith alone.
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Here is some verses about faith:
Gen 15:6 Abram believed20 the LORD, and the LORD21 considered his response of faith22 as proof of genuine loyalty.23
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes saying, “Let it be done for you according to your faith.”
Mar 10:52 Jesus said to him, “Go, your faith has healed you.”
Luk 18:42 Jesus122 said to him, “Receive123 your sight; your faith has healed you.”124
Rom 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.14
Rom 10:14 How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them15 ?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely 16 is the arrival 17 of those who proclaim the good news.”18
Rom 10:16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report ?”19
Rom 10:17 Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word20 of Christ.21
[Faith comes what is heard. So those who have chosen to listen to and believe the Gospel have done it through faith, and those who have not chosen to believe the Gospel do not possess this saving faith that Scripture describes. You know that the majority of people in this world do not believe the Gospel. Therefore, if we are saved by faith alone, the majority of people cannot be saved.]
January 1, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Again, you think your faith is of YOU. Yet clearly it is not. “yet ALL is of God”. All includes your faith and your lack of faith.
“God is operating ALL in all” (I Cor. 12:6)
“Yet ALL is of God” (II Cor. 5:18)
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18)
Again, notice the word ALL!! The faith is NOT of YOURSELF. You can attempt to change scriptures and twist it to say what it doesn’t.
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).
Yes, Even your faith would be included in ALL things.
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
Not even your faith.
“…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.”
You can’t even say Jesus is lord without the Holy Spirit. Not your free will….the HOLY spirit causes it to happen…not you.
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE” (Phil. 1:29).
That is right, it is GIVEN…not only to believe. Wow. no need to twist anything or change meanings.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘faith’] not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).
You seem to BOAST that it is of your own works and directly contradicting what the scripture stated. It is NOT of yourself. It is a Gift so stop boasting. Look at the entire scripture and stop trying to deceive others. shame on you for being so dishonest.
“You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…” (John 15:16).
Check this one out:
“NO MAN CAN COME TO ME [by his own free will choice] except the Father which has sent me DRAW HIM [Greek: DRAG HIM] and I WILL raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).
to go to him wouldn’t you need faith. yet you can’t even do that unless you are DRAGGED! NOT of your own will. Wow..amazingly simple..isn’t it?
“There is NONE that seeks after God” (Rom. 3:11b).
Lets repeat the scripture again so you are not able to DECEIVE others:
“For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [that ‘FAITH’] is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?]; it is the GIFT OF GOD” (Eph. 2:8).
Let us see if God can make it clearer for you:
“For it is GOD which works IN you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
HisChild seems to think it is himself that works and wills to do what he wants. I guess according to him not all is the will of God.
“…and what have you that you did not RECEIVE….?” (I Cor. 4:7).
OUCH…..seems you have received everything…including your faith.
Do you wish to attempt to deceive us more? Go ahead, i can do this all day.
Kids, here is what HISCHILD is doing:
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men…Full well you reject the commandments of God,[like:‘LOVE YOUR ENEMIES’] that you may keep your OWN TRADITION” (Mark 7:7 & 9)
He doesn’t even read his own God’s words. Sad.
“I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING” (John 15:5). According to God’s Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: “NOTHING.” It is Christ “IN him” that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.
“Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?” (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? “God LEADS…” is the cause of repentance, not free will. Amazing, you can’t even REPENT unless God LEADS you. It is not your free will.
Do you want more?
OK….here is a GREAT ONE for you. You better make sure you are seated!!
“I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of Who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Gal. 2:20). WOW!
Notice it is not faith IN the Son of God but the exact Faith OF the Son of God…let us make it clear…it is HIS faith, not ours until he Gives it to us. Christian like to ignore this too or maybe they just like to follow blindly and not actually read. I am not sure.
Now that was an easy one to communicate.
Please feel free to try and deceive again. I will be happy to expose your lies. We don’t need people in this world that want to deceive others. Especially those that would deceive children with their threats of torture by fire.
January 1, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Seems you don’t actually understand the scriptures you post. Would you like me to help you understand them as well? You can’t even hear if it is NOT God’s word that you hear. Oh, again, you think it is all up to you. You are the typical brainwashed christian. you believe what you want to believe. Again, which of us is far more objective? I am not required to believe, I do not have a threat of torture over my head if i do not believe, i am not promised rewards if i do believe.
If you check my other comments back to you, i provide an explanation of just one scripture and show how all are saved by ONE scripture. I have provided several other supporting scriptures to make the point.
Now, read it all and then think to yourself, which version are our teens and others likely to believe. the logical one or the one that requires opinion to interpret? like i stated, i am happy to start posting many of the emails I have received that thank me for helping them see the truth. some are from Christians.
January 1, 2009 at 1:30 pm
more examples that everything is givin to you from above:
“Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…” (John 19:10-11).
Even Jesus, the SON of your God was smart enough to know he could do nothing but for God/Father:
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…” (John 5:19).
CHECK this OUT to go along with the above scripture:
You didn’t seem to notice the scritpure ll Thes 2? This is exactly what people like you do when you think you hav free will over what god has already stated he controls.
THE MAN OF SIN SITS ON THE THRONE OF HIS OWN CARNAL MIND, IN HIS OWN BODY CLAIMING POWERS THAT RIVAL THOSE OF GOD HIMSELF!…….”…showing himself that he is god?” You claim you can do what Jesus HIMSELF claimed he can not do without the FATHER. He said he can do NOTHING but for the Father. You can’t have faith or anything without it being given to you.
Why do you continue to try to preach a lie? it is your myth and you are welcome to believe whatever it is you want. However, I will do what I can to expose your lies.
YOU, a MORTAL seems to think you can do whatever you want without God directing it. AMAZINGLY absurd.
“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36).
You are NOT free unless you are made free. NOT your choice. sorry….but then again, you seem to think you are above Jesus and can do anything outside of God’s will.
January 1, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness1 to be tempted by the devil.
Mat 4:2 After he fasted forty days and forty nights he was famished.2 Mat 4:3 The tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become bread.”3 Mat 4:4 But he answered,4 “It is written, ‘Man 5 does not live 6 by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ “7Mat 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city,8 had him stand9 on the highest point10 of the temple,Mat 4:6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you’11 and ‘with their hands they will lift you up, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ “12Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, “Once again it is written: ‘You are not to put the Lord your God to the test.’ “13Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their grandeur.14 Mat 4:9 And he said to him, “I will give you all these things if you throw yourself to the ground and worship15 me.”Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go away,16 Satan! For it is written: ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’ “17
Mat 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels18 came and began ministering to his needs.
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It is evident in scripture that the devil also reads it: see Matthew 4:5-7 above.
If the devil reads and knows scripture, don’t you think he (the devil) should know the basics as you, truelogic, put it “that God is fully in control in the absolute sense of all things, including moral evil.”
Why does the devil in Matthew 4:8-9, say to Jesus that he (the devil – “I will”) will give you (Jesus) all these things (his kingdom, the world) if only Jesus will worship him (the devil).
Why did the devil not say I will give you all this (the world) that is actually God’s if you worship me? Because then it would be an illogical statement. Scripture says, Jesus is the Son of God, and as God’s Son, he already has everything that is God’s.
Scripture says that Jesus died on the cross to reclaim (purchase) that which was lost with his own blood. Therefore the only logical answer is that the world must be under satans (devil’s) control.
The following is scripture that backs this up:
Rev 5:9 They were singing a new song:24 “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed,25 and at the cost of your own blood26 you have purchased27 for God persons28 from every tribe, language,29 people, and nation.
January 1, 2009 at 1:39 pm
you keep contradicting yourself. you say god is “fully in control in the ABSOLUTE sense of ALL things” and yet you want to claim free will. Amazing how you can’t even see your own lies coming back on you.
I not sure what you are attempting to say with the other scriptures or comments. you don’t seem to understand death in the bible. there are other types of death but not all will go through every type. according to scripture. I can do an entire post that is rather long on that issue but it would be a bit above your ability to understand and likely many others. that is why i focus on the obvious ones. I attempt to get teens and others that are not yet brainwashed to think critically and if i provide simple scriptures they are more likely to get interested on their own. if i start demonstrating the full meanings with proper greek and hebrew, i will lose their attention. what i provide on the blog is only very simple and brief. as you can see from some of my replies to your comments, i can get very detailed.
“…the son of destruction, he opposing and lifting up himself above all being called a god or an august object, so that him into the temple of the God to be seated, openly showing himself, that he is a god”
“…even to seat himself in the temple of God, and openly declare himself a God”
It is this “god” that sits on the throne of men’s hearts, which was created for jesus. This “god” that sits on the throne of all the unconverted men believes they possess this will of the mind that is completely and absolutely FREE from any and all causality, can either bring about their own salvations or choose to reject it and NO POWER in heaven or earth can stop them.
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men…Full well you reject the commandments of God, [like: ‘LOVE YOUR ENEMIES’] that you may keep your OWN TRADITION” (Mark 7:7 & 9).
January 1, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Truelogic said, “i provide an explanation of just one scripture and show how all are saved by ONE scripture.”
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And there folks is the fallacy of ignorance at its best. I guess you, truelogic, do not understand that in order to find the truth, all verses in the Bible must reconcile in perfect harmony without ANY contradiction. Otherwise you have concluded in a lie.
Picture this. The truth is like finding a needle in a hay stack. That is why I keep telling you that in order to find the truth you must be led by the Spirit of God. You must be spiritual minded in order to interpret the scriptures correctly.
So if you want to prove there is no free will, do so without referencing the Bible. But if you choose to reference the Bible and use it as evidence, you must treat every verse in the Bible as true evidence. Therefore when the Bible says an unbeliever will never be able to discern the truth, accept it as fact (within this premise). Otherwise, how can your readers make sense of any of this. You want to source the Bible as evidence, the very same source you simultaneously want to condemn. How can you logically condemn a source that says unless you are spiritual you cannot understand the source. On what basis then are you trying to condemn it–on your interpretation, which the Bible says will always end up a lie if spoken by an unbeliever. Whatever an unbeliever concludes from the source (Bible) will be false. This is what the source says.
For example, if I encrypt some text (i.e. Bible) with a private key (i.e. Holy Spirit), how are you going to properly decrypt the text without this private key. Your attempts may reveal many versions of what the encrypted message might be, but without the private key, you will never discover the true text.
January 1, 2009 at 1:53 pm
keep dancing, i dont’ really care. i provided the scriptures. i am happy to let the readers decide. it is working well and has for some time of my life now. i get so many emails that i can not reply to them all. only a few that i find interesting. everyone wants to know more and i plan to start providing much more like the LIE of the Trinity in the bible.
let me guess, do you believe in the trinity?
you don’t seem to read what i write. i said “according to the bible” there is no free will. i have clearly stated i do not believe in the bible and therefore i know there is free will. why is it that you can’t catch this?
January 1, 2009 at 1:55 pm
again, notice you make claims. however, i know people that believe JUST like i do and they are BELIEVERS. OH, yeah, now you will tell me they are wrong for some other reason and you are right again. funny. I learned all this when i was a believer, by the way. oh, yeah, i am sure you will try to say scripture negates that as well…haha
you keep dancing around what you know is true
January 1, 2009 at 1:56 pm
so if i do not understand the bible because i am not a believer. i must be wrong and it is not true that “yet all is of god”. therefore NOT all is of God? and therefore God Does NOT operate all in all? so what i have said all must be false and maybe the opposite? wow, you are drowning, my child.
January 1, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Truelogic said,”you keep contradicting yourself. you say god is “fully in control in the ABSOLUTE sense of ALL things” and yet you want to claim free will.”
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This is what I actually wrote:
If the devil reads and knows scripture, don’t you think he (the devil) should know the basics as you, truelogic, put it “that God is fully in control in the absolute sense of all things, including moral evil.”
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I specifically said, as you, truelogic, put it “that God is fully in control in the absolute sense of all things, including moral evil”
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How is your audience going to believe anything you say if you even have trouble taking what I write down out of context and twist it. If you can take what I write out of context and twist it, surely it will not be difficult for any reasonable person to see that you do not possess any credibility at this point.
I am here to defend scripture from slander and now it turns out I need to defend myself from slander as well.
January 1, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I like this one and it again helps me to expose truth. First, I made a mistake and as such I am big enough to admit my mistake. So my audience can judge for themselves. I promise i will not threaten them with an eternity of loving torture in fire..haha.
Second, you clearly want to attempt to make it look as if I tried to deceive others instead of making a mistake and not understanding your reply correctly. Now, which of us is trying to deceive. You should not jump to such a judgment when you know it is clearly not something I attempted to do and “twist” what you stated. Yet you want others to believe i would actually try to twist your words.
Clearly, we see that you do not possess credibility when you attempt to deceive again by attempting to claim i would purposefully try to twist your words. Nice try but you can keep dancing for us all.
Surely it is not difficult for reasonable people to see how you are the one that wishes to deceive and know that I have clearly proven many of my points with scripture you are attempting to attack me. nice dance and nice attempt at deceiving again.
Additionally, if i was lying and actually trying to “twist” your words then it would have been very simple for me to just delete the comments and no one would be the wiser. However, clearly, by me answering the post and leaving it up, i have NOTHING to hide.
i hope that didn’t hurt you too much
January 1, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Truelogic said, “you keep dancing around what you know is true”
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Again I must remind you that you do not know me, so please do not make conclusions on my behalf.
January 1, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I can make any conclusions or judgments I want. Just like you. Must I remind you this is America and we are a FREE country and I have the right of free speech for which many died to give me. I have that freedom just as you do. It is clear you are dancing around what you know is true. That is MY conclusion and MY right to say it. Unless you want to try to take those rights away. Do you?
Free Will? I can find more and more examples of NO free will.
Psalm 22:9
“Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother’s breast.” Wow, kind of goes back to the faith. He MADE you trust. just another examples.
Psa. 139:16
“Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.”
if things were ordained and scripture clearly shows that all was before ordained by god. then clearly you have no free will.
i can go on and on.
God “opeartes all in all” even from the very beginning:
Adam and Eve, were created for the purpose of being molded into the image of god and were designed to eat from the tree of knowledge. Again, this is scriptural.
If they didn’t eat of the tree of knowledge, they wouldn’t have reached the level of being like god…in his image.
“And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US , TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL…” (Gen. 3:22).
[Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’]
So it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN!
And you think it is your free will that allows you and others to do what they do? I guess God isn’t all powerful after all.
January 1, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Truelogic said, “so if i do not understand the bible because i am not a believer. i must be wrong and it is not true that “yet all is of god”. therefore NOT all is of God? and therefore God Does NOT operate all in all? so what i have said all must be false and maybe the opposite? wow, you are drowning, my child”
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Here let me explain it better. What is written is written – it is the truth and the inspired word of God. What people get when they read what is written in the Bible is doctrine, or conclusions based on their understanding of what they are reading. The argument isn’t what is written in the Bible is true or false, because everything written in the Bible is true, it is what you conclude from what is written in the Bible that matters. But an unbeliever will always conclude wrongly from the truths that are written in the Bible.
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You will not be able to correctly interpret the entire Bible. Sorry but you won’t. Don’t pull out some verses. Reconcile all the verses of the Bible and then you have a case for the truth. I showed you verses you cannot reconcile. Therefore you conclusion must be false.
It is ironic that you say I am drowning but it is you who seems to be grasping feverishly to something to prove your logic.
You cannot use the Bible to argue against itself. You cannot use a portion of it and ignore the rest. You must use all of it. That is why it is called the Bible (in its entirety).
I keep telling you that you are not able to understand it because you are not a believer, but you don’t believe me.
You desperately want me to believe in nothing like you, rather than something that brings me joy and happiness in my life.
I choose the something, rather than the emptiness you so much want to cling to.
You spend so much time trying to liberate people into emptiness and hopelessness. Do you find it strange that no one in this world knows what happens to you when you die, yet you so confidently want people to believe in nothing as a security blanket. Very strange.
At the least I have hope and happiness.
January 1, 2009 at 2:27 pm
now that you have caused me to look at scripture to provide more proof that according to the bible……did you get that…according to the bible, we dont’ have free will. i think i can update my pamphlets and blog to reflect more scriptures in support of what i stated.
you say that i can’t understand the bible if i am not a believer. well, maybe i am a believer and yet god doesn’t let me know i am a believer. it is possible because the bible tells me that “with god everything is possible”. man, i love that bible proving my point. over and over again.
January 1, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Truelogic said, “I like this one and it again helps me to expose truth. First, I made a mistake and as such I am big enough to admit my mistake.”
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You admit it because I made it known. But in your arrogance you refuse to give me a true apology. You rather continue in accusation.
Now you want to back pedal and say that this incident helps you expose the truth (?????).
Don’t you proof read your posts before you post them, especially when quoting someone. That is why I use copy/paste feature when quoting people. But it looks like it wasn’t a true copy and paste after all as you left out the crucial pieces of the quote, “as truelogic, puts it”. Makes me wonder if you are really reading what I write, or are reading what you want the words to say.
You admit you are human and human make mistakes. Exactly my point, that without the Holy Spirit leading you to all truth, you will make mistakes in your interpretation of the truth (Scripture/the Bible).
January 1, 2009 at 2:43 pm
If that is your Judgement of me, I am o.k. with it. Again, you show you can make false judgments and without regard for what Jesus told you. You are the one that seems to want others to believe what you say and apparently you follow jesus. Yet you are here blogging with me about silly things and judging me. Jesus would be proud. I think this shows many your character and lack of credibility. Instead of spending all this time doing as jesus would do and maybe saving the lives of others or giving them love and peace, you come here and debate with me. You tell me I don’t give you a true apology. What, you want me to send flowers? Get real…this is real life…grow up.
No, again, i do not proof read my posts. that is why i make mistakes. again, sorry. but actually according to you, i don’t mean it..haha. Actually, i have stated in a few of my comments to others that i DO NOT proof any of my comments but try to spend more time on the actual blog posts.
Prove that without the holy spirit leading me I will make mistakes. Yet another claim you make. Funny how you continue to make claims and not back them up. We have another one before us again.
Since you make mistakes as well, i guess the holy spirit is not leading you either. how silly you are. oh, i guess you don’t make mistakes in scriptural interpretation and this means you are the only one that is lead by the holy spirit? tell that to the over 300 HUNDRED other denominations of the Christian religion that want to claim they are correct.
Yeah, i get it, they are not so special to be lead by the All mighty HOLY SPIRIT like you? Oh, again you show your pride. This is often the case with many christian. ONLY they can interpret their specific version…even though there are over 300 other denominations that see it a little different. What a joke.
You will come back here again and again and make every attempt to save face when you have been exposed and the lies you tell are shown. then you try to make more claims for which you can’t backup. you are drowning in your own deceiving ways.
Hypocrites claim to follow jesus and then spend all their time blogging. while children are dying for lack of things as simple as clean water. Jesus would be so proud of you. but maybe the holy spirit would rather you debate with me than save the lives of a baby?
what a crock
January 1, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Truelogic said, “now that you have caused me to look at scripture to provide more proof that according to the bible……did you get that…according to the bible, we dont’ have free will. i think i can update my pamphlets and blog to reflect more scriptures in support of what i stated.”
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You may be able to find more scripture that supports your conclusion. But you cannot take all of scripture and support your conclusion. If you will take all of scripture, you will have contradictions based on how you are interpreting them.
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When you read the Bible you conclude mankind has no free will.
When I read the Bible I conclude mankind has free will.
Two different conclusion from the same Bible. There can only be one truth. One has to be the correct interpretation and the other has to be a false interpretation of scripture.
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Who do you think has the better chance of interpreting the Bible correctly, the believer or the unbeliever?
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If you say the unbeliever, it is unBiblical, and you have caused an irreconcilable contradiction of scripture. You see you cannot use the Bible to fight against itself.
January 1, 2009 at 2:52 pm
FACT is that i HAVE taking them all and they ALL agree with the other. maybe you are just too carnal minded that see the truth. prove to us you are not carnal minded. oh, i love this mythical stuff. FACT is that you have not provided a scripture to show any of us that “yet all is of God” is not true. Do you have a scripture that say NOT all is of God? Is ALL of god or not? Of course, according to the bible ALL is of God. According to you all is not of God. pretty simple..sorry…truth hurts.
Either ALL is of God or ALL is not. We can settle the “truth” now.
Answer the following questions:
“yet all is of God”. Is all of God…yes or no
if all is of God than that includes EVERYTHING. as a matter of fact there is a scripture that says “everything is of HIM”.
who do you think can interpret the bible correctly. a person that graduated from bible college, studied the bible and came to these conclusions while in college, or someone that was told from birth that what they are taught is true and if they don’t believe will be tortured for eternity.
let the readers judge for themselves.
Additionally, like i have stated, i even have friends that believe we have no free will and they are preaching and believers in God. so if you want to claim you have the truth then you are one of millions that follow other denominations that seem to think a little bit differently. absurd.
you clearly think you are correct and ALL others are wrong. you even tell god that NOT all is of him.
January 1, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Truelogic said “you say that i can’t understand the bible if i am not a believer. well, maybe i am a believer and yet god doesn’t let me know i am a believer. it is possible because the bible tells me that “with god everything is possible”. man, i love that bible proving my point. over and over again”
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I am only repeating what scripture says in black and white. No inferences here. No paraphrasing, no word substitution, etc.
“well, maybe i am a believer” you say, [and just don't know it] Proves to me you don’t even know what a believer is.
LOL
I have to laugh. You have truly stumped me with your logic.
I can’t think of any response to the final portion of your statement above. (heheh)
January 1, 2009 at 2:56 pm
i do not think you are a true believe as you spend all your time blogging. Just like jesus….now that is funny. You are just like all the other hypocrites that claim to love jesus and care so much for him and put him first and yet spend their time blogging while the children suffer and die for lack of food, water, shelter and medication. Jesus would think it great if you sold your computer and gave that money to save lives. OH…you can’t do that. What about selling your car? Oh, you can’t do that either. Why not trust in God to provide if you have faith? OH, you don’t really have faith? such hypocrisy is common.
the bible says in black and white “YET all is of God”. that includes your actions. that includes faith….what don’t you understand about the word ALL?
like i stated, i have no problem with you making your claims. i have evidence that many seem to agree with me. look around you, many more people are starting to find out about the lie of your faith. you know, the god that loves his children but burns them…haha
January 1, 2009 at 2:59 pm
you are like many christians that think all you need to do is blog. what a sacrifice you make for jesus that died and suffred greatly for you? praise you. great job. a child just died but you still type in your warm home on your computer. you are not loving enough to give up your life or time for others. not even to sell your possessions and giving to them. yet you claim to follow jesus. what a joke. you don’t even know what it is to follow jesus. read scripture and stop dancing around and making excuses
January 1, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I like this scripture:
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation [so here is another statement that is ‘worthy’ and ‘acceptable’ in the sight of God]. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [and nothing short of ‘all men’ IS worthy or acceptable to God], specially [specially does not mean ‘exclusively’] of those that believe” (I Tim. 4:10).
even those that don’t believe are saved? oh, the bible is full of it. additionally since the book of revelation is not literal we can show supporting scripture to show that all will be saved.
yeah, i am that good
January 1, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Truelogic said, “You are the one that seems to want others to believe what you say and apparently you follow jesus. Yet you are here blogging with me about silly things and judging me. Jesus would be proud. I think this shows many your character and lack of credibility. Instead of spending all this time doing as jesus would do and maybe saving the lives of others or giving them love and peace,”
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Yes I do want people to believe what I say. I speak from the Gospel which is the truth.
What you call silly, I call a significant case in point. Whose judging. The Bible is your judge. I simply rebuked you for slandering my quote.
Jesus would be proud that I am trying to spread His Gospel truth.
These are some of the things Jesus did and said:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach this message:26 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring60 peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword.
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1Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil,27 because the devil has been sinning28 from the beginning. For this purpose29 the Son of God was revealed: to destroy30 the works of the devil.
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You see I am doing what Jesus wants me to do. Preach the Gospel and destroy the works of the devil.
January 1, 2009 at 3:19 pm
If you are doing what Jesus wanted. why not do it but also do it in a place by going places and “preaching the gospel”? you can’t give that much, can you? jesus could. even i did and i am an agnostic. seems that 6 years as a non-believer i had not problem giving love and most all my possessions to help other.
yeah, which one of us is more credible? ha ha.
Again, we see you making excuses for NOT giving up your life of being seated on your butt and blogging is doing the will of god. amazing. i don’t think you want me to list all the scriptures and examples that show you are only doing what you want. pathetic hypocrisy exposed here again.
why don’t you have faith in god, go to a place and give all your possessions as the bible stated? I even asked you to give all to help the scriptures be more accurate. i am someone that asked of you to sell all your possessions and give to the poor. i am asking you to do this and save some lives. children, babies. can you do it?
let me answer for you….NO….you follow only what you want to follow. only the parts you feel will let you continue to have the life you have now and want. all about you.
yet you think you are one of the few “elect”? you aren’t even close.
peace
January 1, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Again, i make my points on my main blog and it stands well for me. so feel free to come around and make you attempts to show it as wrong. do what jesus told you to do…blog…haha.
please don’t get up and actually sacrifice anything in your life. don’t trust in god to provide. that would require faith..haha.
January 1, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Truelogic said, “you are like many christians that think all you need to do is blog. what a sacrifice you make for jesus that died and suffred greatly for you?”
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Actually blogging is a powerful way to get the message across. To reach people across the globe.
Again you speak about me, but do not know anything about me.
Jesus commanded us to preach the Gospel to the whole world.
Mar 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.”
January 1, 2009 at 3:14 pm
like all christians, you take the easy way out. wow, what a sacrifice to blog. it must be a great burden you have.
Luke 12:33
“Sell your possessions and give to the poor.”
Matthew 5:41
“If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.”
Matthew 5:42
“Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.”
I am asking you to give all your possessions to the poor and go help them. Will you do what the lord as said? Of course not. Hypocrite.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
clearly you don’t want to be prefrect.
yeah, i know, these scriptures magically do not apply to you and were not said to you. i know you do not care what example jesus set to teach you what to do. you do what you Want to you. not what God asks. Hypocrite!
Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
do you have anything saved for the future?
Matthew 6:19,20 (NIV)
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.”
Matthew 6:26,27 (NIV)
“Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?”
we can go on an on to demonstrate how you don’t really have faith. you are exposed each time you reply. sorry
i speak of you and you speak of me. you don’t know me but you seem to make all the judgments as if you do. you want to claim many things and provide no proof. yet you don’t like it when i make claims and back them up.
hypocrite
January 1, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Truelogic said, “you are not loving enough to give up your life or time for others. not even to sell your possessions and giving to them. yet you claim to follow jesus. what a joke. you don’t even know what it is to follow jesus. read scripture and stop dancing around and making excuses”
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Again you do not know anything about me. Why do you continue to slander me like this?
What do you, an unbeliever, know about following Jesus? LOL (hehehe)
Again, your logic stumps me and I have no further response for you.
January 1, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Again, i do know you and i can make any claim i want. just like you claim to know god and claim he is real.
Again, i learned what i learned when i was a believer. so i know much about it. additionally, i can read the bible.
you know very little about love, that is clear. you know alot about yourself and care alot about yourself.
but you are doing like jesus wanted..right…blogging…now that is funny
January 1, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Truelogic said, “I like this scripture:
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation [so here is another statement that is ‘worthy’ and ‘acceptable’ in the sight of God]. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [and nothing short of ‘all men’ IS worthy or acceptable to God], specially [specially does not mean ‘exclusively’] of those that believe” (I Tim. 4:10).”
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Here is another translation:
1Ti 4:9 This saying11 is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.
1Ti 4:10 In fact this is why12 we work hard and struggle,13 because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people,14 especially of believers.
I don’t understand why you like it so much because it doesn’t say what you think it does. And again, you try to declare victory with a one liner.
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Of course Jesus is the Savior revealed to all people (mankind). Did he not die for all (mankind) that they all may be saved? By “especially of believers” just emphases that he died on the cross especially for believers (his true people who will truly in the end be the saved ones)
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you! But unless you repent,5 you will all perish as well!
[Repentance is something a believer does, isn't it?]
Mic 7:18 There is no other God like you!52
You53 forgive sin
and pardon54 the rebellion
of those who remain among your people.55
You do not remain angry forever,56
but delight in showing loyal love.
[Jesus dieing on the cross is the pardon. Note it says of those who remain among your people; It doesn't say all people; those that remain are the believers]
January 1, 2009 at 3:40 pm
can you prove that all will not repent? no. you are grasping again. why do you argue with me anyway, you told me i can’t interpret the bible, even when i interepreted it when i was saved and taught in college. haha. repentance again is not something do out of your own free will. so god can do whatever he wants as he said all is possible.
you try to provide a one liner and then can’t back it up. sad
January 1, 2009 at 3:41 pm
If scripture says clearly that he will save all men. i would bet on him if i believed. you can believe your version if you want.