Scripture states God sent his Son “to be the savior of the world”. Pretty clear that to be a savior, one must save. To be the savior of the “whole world,” one MUST save the whole world.
Christians keep telling us that their God will fail to do what he stated he would do. Scripture is clear again that God says that if he has so much as “spoken it,” it will come to pass. If God desires it, he has also stated “his desires will be done.” He also stated his “pleasures WILL be done.”.
Sorry Christians but your hell fire story doesn’t actually jive with scripture. Why do you need to lie to much to the gullible and take advantage of the minds of children? Is that the only way you can get followers?
“God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:4
Kids, teens, young adults and gullible adults, stop buying the lies of the religious and start to think for yourself. There is NO eternity in hell for anyone, that it yet another lie told by Christians. Christians are not able to backup their claims but that doesn’t stop them from making them, no matter how ridiculous.
Posted by blogginbaldguy on May 23, 2011 at 7:37 am
The Greek word used for *world* is kosmos. Kosmos has many meanings based on the context. The word is found in the writings of Plato and Aristotle and is employed by the New Testament.
Asserting that John 3:16 teaches universalism based on the word *world* does two things 1)it strains the meaning of the word kosmos and 2) misses the point of the verses (cf. Jn 3:16-18). Do these verses really mean that Christ died for the whole world [head for head] as you assert? The answer is no.
You also lift 1 Timothy 2:4 completely out of context. Does all mean all in the sense of everyone who has ever lived? Or does this actually mean all types of people? Look at the verses in context and draw out the meaning instead of reading into it. This is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. Your interpretive principle is flawed from the outset therefore your conclusion is also flawed.
Posted by truelogic on May 23, 2011 at 6:45 pm
Kosmos meaning the system of orderly arrangement of the whole or some part of human society and used in the Greek New Testament. It is sad that many who profess christianity don’t understand the doctrines of those they claim to follow.
Prove your comment that God didn’t die for the Whole World (head for head). You say the answer is no and then you stop right there.
Do you believe God the Father hears the prayers of his son? “Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me. and i knew that thou hearest me ALWAYS…” John 11:41 to 42.
First look at real context and read the entire bible to get true context.
“They all (priest and citizens) say unto him” ver 22 “let Him be crucified”
“what, what evil hath he done?” ver 23 “let him be crucified’
“i am innocent of the blood of this just person” mat 27:24
“come unto me, all ye (sinner)….I will give you rest” mat 11:28
“I (that would be jesus) have compassion on the multitude (of sinner)” mat 18:11
“who can be saved….with god all things are possible” mat 19:25 to 26
then answered all the people..his blood be on us..mat 27:25…
then they….EVERYONE “curcified him” mat. 27:35
Do you believe God the Father hears the prayers of his son? “Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me. and i knew that thou hearest me ALWAYS…” John 11:41 to 42.
Now, get ready for this:
“And when they (that would represent you, me and the whole world) were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they crucified him…”
what did little jesus do?
“Father … FORGIVE THEM … for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:33-34). This is truly the “lords prayer”.
think about it, Jesus asked the father to forgive the very worst of the sinners in the world. Those that killed and didn’t stop the killing and torture of the son of God. Wow. He asked his father this long before any of them ever even thought of repenting.
There is no mistaking who the “them” is in the lords prayer. Let me guess, you think it is literally meant for just those among him that actually took part and wasn’t for the world?
In Acts 3:6-8 Peter asks Christ to heal a man. The whole city was able to witness this miracle. Peter speaks to the crowd:
“Ye MEN OF ISRAEL (that would be all of us)… Jesus, Whom ye (that us again) delivered up, and denied Him … For ye (us again) DENIED the Holy One and Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life … And now, brethren, I am aware that through ignorance ye did it, as did your rulers … The priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees … Annas the high priest, and Ciaphas, and John, and Alexander … Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel … Be it known unto YOU ALL, and to ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom YE CRUCIFIED…”
Holy Shit…did you catch that? Pretty clear whom the ALL is referenced to. Honestly, read the bible in context and don’t attempt to understand bits and pieces.
The forgiving of THEM is ALL of us, everyone.
“For of a truth againt thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the GENTILES (pretty much everyone) AND the people of israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done (remember that “crucify him)” (Acts 3:12-4:28).
Starting to get the picture? we ALL crucified him and that is what the ALL is speaking of in the other scriptures I provided.
Let me guess, you don’t believe God heard the lords prayer to forgive ALL?
Where do you think these words of Jesus came from? …….let me help you….”Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the father in me? The WORDS that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwells in Me, he does the works” (John 14:10).
God already approved it all, forgiving before they repented. The is the doctrine of God that God preapproved:
“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself ” (John 7:16-17). Wow!
Why does god plan to save all? because like scripture stated “they (us) know not what we do” and this my friend falls in line with the fact that we do the will of god and not the will of man. we can not do anything other than that which God planned before time.
“To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die … a time to kill, and a time to heal…” (Ecc. 3:1-3).
Think about that one and apply it to the complete context of “god’s word”. a tie to be born and a time to die and time to kill and a time to HEAL.
You can’t repent unless god makes you repent, it is not of your own free will to do it.
“Or are you despising the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance” (Rom. 2:4). nothing to do with you…it is all god.
Do you think when God states he will “judge the world” in that it doesn’t mean the whole world? “……TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD …” (I Pet. 4:16-17).”
Lets help you with a few more direct scriptures so you don’t have to attempt to think about it too much:
“For God sent NOT his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD through Him might be SAVED” (John 3:17)!
“…the Lamb of God , which takes away the sin of THE WORLD” (John 1:29)!
I LOVE THIS NEXT ONE…don’t you?
“And He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD” (I John 2:2)!
Holy shit, batman, does that smell like Christians are attempting to deceive or what?
“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of THE WORLD” (I John 4:14)!
Are you catching any of this blogginbaldguy? I can go on forever but you are likely to just make excuses. notice i backup my comments and I don’t just make claims, like most christians.
“And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD” (John 12:47)!
Yeah, there are many more examples but really, you should study the bible yourself and try to speak the truth and stop teaching the christian or whatever doctrine you are teaching.
let me guess, you think Jesus, the savior of the whole world will fail to do what his father sent him to do? pathetic god you have.
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour: who WILL have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (I Tim. 2:4).
this is not something that has already happened, it is something that is to come but maybe you need to know your greek to understand it completely.
don’t you believe God’s WILL, WILL be done? apparently not.
Posted by truelogic on May 23, 2011 at 6:49 pm
remember, i come from a more objective point of view than the Christian. a christians is required to believe, or else horrible things will happen. however, if he does believe, wonderful and amazing things are in store for him.
I don’t believe either way and have not problem with being proved wrong. I search only for truth and have no punishment or reward system for believing one way or the other.
so you see, i have a far more objective point of view.
Posted by blogginbaldguy on May 24, 2011 at 7:00 am
@Truelogic: This is simply sad. Your hermenuetic is an atrocity.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
-If according to your interpretation the whole “World” is going to be saved who is the bible referring to as being condemned?
You then assert:
In Acts 3:6-8 Peter asks Christ to heal a man. The whole city was able to witness this miracle. Peter speaks to the crowd:
“Ye MEN OF ISRAEL (that would be all of us)… Jesus, Whom ye (that us again) delivered up, and denied Him … For ye (us again) DENIED the Holy One and Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life … And now, brethren, I am aware that through ignorance ye did it, as did your rulers … The priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees … Annas the high priest, and Ciaphas, and John, and Alexander … Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel … Be it known unto YOU ALL, and to ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom YE CRUCIFIED…”
I almost laughed when I first read this from you. The Men of Israel, are the men gathered in Jerusalem around Pentecost. You think you are a “Man of Israel”? Are you serious? The bible refers to two types of people throughout the bible. Specifically there are Jews and Gentiles and generically there are Elect and Unregenerate. Now perhaps you are Jewish, I do not know but either way the Men of Israel are or rather were the Men of Israel at that time to whom Peter was addressing.
You see the word “world” and “all” and “everyone” often times has a specific meaning in Greek. I have pointed out to you that Biblical interpretation requires good scholarship. You have not demonstrated this in even the most remote sense. You continously lift out bits and pieces to attempt to shore up your case that the bible teaches universalism. It does not. Here is what it does teach:
Election:
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Jesus came to save all of his elect children. Every single one of them will be saved. This is what 1 Timothy is referring to when it says that all men *will* be saved. All of God’s children whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life are saved.
Jesus talks about this time and again in the scripture.
Posted by truelogic on May 24, 2011 at 8:14 pm
what a joke. let me guess, you think being condemned means people are tortured for eternity? again, you need to believe what you were taught. and thus are not objective and of course that would make you ignorant to the facts. you are a child in the world of understanding. relying on superstitions to explain what you don’t understand to fill the emptiness you have inside and to take away the fears.
the book of life. “and whosever was not found in the book of life was cast into the fire”. let me guess, you don’t even know that that ‘fire’ is? do you.
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. the punishment of this god is ALWAYS for the purpose of correcting and NEVER for the purpose of torturing. the scriptures i’ve provided that demonstrate ALL men will be saved are just a sample. there are many more but I doubt you would be able to understand the true beauty of the writing because you need to corrupt it to fit the Christian doctrine. just like the trinity is a lie and easy to prove as such using the very word of god.
you need to learn about the literal meaning and symbolic meanings used in the bible. like the “beam in the eyes” . it doesn’t reference an actual beam in a persons eyes. the lake of fire is not a literal lake of fire. fire doesn’t torture for eternity, …fire kills. fire is used to purify.
if you read the scriptures you will notice that god has demonstrated himself as being a fire and not just a fire but a consuming fire. fire is used to bring judgment on humanity. god is a consuming fire, god is the lake of fire. pretty simple stuff.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). and EVERY tongue shall confess! what happens when you confess? you are saved!
In fact man is saved by fire and notice it states ANY man’s work.
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every mans work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but (Now read carefully) BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED (notice what saves him), yet so AS BY FIRE” (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
wow, holy shit, my proof, direct evidence, from the “word” of god himself continues to be clear.
do you not know that god judges in righteousness? one does not go up before satan to be judged. the judgement throne is white, not black.
“He shall judge the world with RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Psalm 96:13)
“Because He [God] hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in RIGHTEOUSNESS” (Acts 17:31)
notice how i continue to provide my evidence to support what I state. not just one scripture or two scriptures but a large list of scriptures. you quote a couple that i’ve used and attempt to claim they don’t mean what they state. you need to feel that all this superstitious stuff will pay off for you and that those that did’t listen to you will be shown to be wrong. maybe you just need to feel you are right all the time. I don’t know but that doesn’t prove your god is real or any other god is false.
“For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, he layeth it low, even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust” (Isa. 26:5)
“With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9)!!
they will not just hear righteousness but they will LEARN it. The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL.
“Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR”
“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE … I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT” (Isa. 46:10-11).
Christians love to deny the scriptures so they can hold onto their little hell fire and second death story.
NOW, I LOVE this next one:
“For the creature was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY (what a powerful statement), but by reason of Him Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also SHALL BE DELIVERED from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW” (Rom. 8:20-22)!
This scriptures just destroys the christian doctrine. Use your greek dictionary and lookup the many words in that scripture. rather interesting.
God himself subjected the WHOLE CREATION to vanity and we had NO CHOICE. Being righteous it is God himself who WILL deliver the WHOLE creation from bondage, pain, suffering. as i’ve shown before, god is the creator of evil and as you see he apparently provided the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils.
HOLY SHIT…..it couldn’t be any clearer. I don’t need to provide you a link to support my statements or use the words of others. I use the very word of God. it was not possible for SATAN to not sin, he was created to sin and he too will saved. it was not possible for adam or eve to NOT sin. they had NO choice in the matter. “man has become as one of us” ….to know good and evil. the tree was put in the garden specifically for a purpose that god already knew.
Christians make their god into some sadistic, torturing freak without righteousness and love and say he will basically torture billions for eternity. that is BULL SHIT according to this God’s word. his word is clear and clearly you couldn’t care for what his word actually states.
“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you” (I Pet. 1:19-20).
the story is so clear and the evidence destroys the christian doctrine. the very word of god himself. god planned it all and man does what he does because god made it so and then christians say god will torture us for what he forced onto us. christians miss the entire message because of fear, hate, jealousy, need for love and rewards or just to feel special.
peace
Posted by ~Arguments for Atheism « The Musings of a bloggin Bald Guy on May 26, 2011 at 8:14 am
[...] 3. Misinterpreting the bible: Atheists who attempt to intrepret the bible often do so in a way that is utterly fallacious. Here’s the scenario, atheist looks at a bible passage let’s say 1 Tim. 2:4 and says see the bible endorses universalism. For a great example see this post. [...]